Once More Into The Breach

[LadyAustringer]

Hey. I'm... not sure why I'm here, to be honest. Over the last two decades I've been diagnosed with an ever-changing list of "illnesses": generalized anxiety, PSTD, panic disorder, social anxiety, depression, agoraphobia (not to mention a rather bizarre array of other phobias). The diagnoses seem to change depending in the person I am seeing at the moment, and honestly... none of them feel right. Doesn't really matter, anyhow, as over the years of therapy with various people I've actually built up a fairly useful repertoire of coping mechanisms. I was barely able to function when I was in my late teens and early twenties, but I've been able to hold down a job for the past ten years, and even re-enrolled in university a year and a half ago. I've even done some travelling: not bad for someone who ten year ago was hardly able to bear leaving the house at all.

Still... right now it's hard. It seems when life gets rough, the coping suffers. And it's been rough. The last six months have included:
- my boyfriend was killed by a drunk driver
- the job I loved suddenly ended due to funding cuts
- I started a new art business type thing full time. I have my first exhibition next month, and another in May after that, and yet a third in negotiations for the fall
- started a new part time job that I hate, to help cover the bills
- applied to change education institutions, and changed my major from biological sciences to digital media design; the final application portfolio is due the end of February
- my best friend and closest confidante moved to another country
- my sister (with whom I am also extremely close) moved three hours away to her husband's farm with her new baby. What with the kid and the farm, I don't see much of her at all.

I can feel myself cracking. Last night was the first night in a while that I woke up thinking I was about to die. It happened four times. I haven't had nighttime panic attacks in years. It's scary- not just the panic, but that it's popping up again. I was at my part time job today and had several near-attacks, where I was able to calm myself down. A couple I was... less successful at. I was so exhausted and burnt by noon that I made a lame "family emergency" excuse to my boss and went home, and took tomorrow off too. It's not super truthful, but I don't get sick days. I had the flu two months ago and they made me come in, even though I was puking into a garbage can every 30-45 minutes. The idea of going back there fills me full of dread. But I have to, since it is the only "reliable" income I have, even though my entrepreneurial efforts at least triple what I make there. The art money comes in bulk chunks, though, and not regularly. When Friday comes... I dunno what I'm doing to do.

So I guess that's why I'm here. I'm afraid of the fear.

[LadyAustringer]

Wait... is there a way to delete my account? I've been reading some of "PanicCured"s articles and they seem like 1) he's the Big Dude here and 2) what he says is utter hogwash. Like, seriously. I'd like to see some of his sources that aren't "I took a bunch of supplements and I dunno but now I'm cured". What kind of snake oil is this place??

"If you are having a panic attack, do not seek a safe person or safe place. The seeking will make you feel worse. All you have to do is sit and do nothing and allow the chemicals to pass through you and metabolize. It can go away in a matter of minutes if you just sit and relax, and watch it flow by you. The symptoms are caused by passing chemicals but they will only pass if you let them. Ride it out. Let it pass. It only takes a few minutes."

Ha. That is not cured- that is learned helplessness. If you tie a terrified dog up next to the thing it is terrified of, then sure, eventually it will stop screaming and trying to get away. But that is not teaching the dog how to deal with the situation, or that the situation is not dangerous. That just teaches that the learner has no effect on the environment. That is right dangerous, dudes. Flooding is no way to train an animal, and if we would not train an animal that way, why the heck would we use the method on people.

If that is the caliber of help offered here by owners-moderators-whatever-he-is, I am better off elsewhere- where medically proven methodologies are encouraged, not pooh-poohed. If someone could point me to the delete account button, I would be obliged.

[Kirk]

Welcome to the forum. What works for one person may not work for another. I would not worry about what others say will or will not work.
You may need to experiment in order to determine what works best for you. Try the forum for a while. Bounce ideas off others. Ask for advice.
Share ideas. See how it goes. Give the forum a chance. It may help you.

[salvator here]

If that is the caliber of help offered here by owners-moderators-whatever-he-is, I am better off elsewhere- where medically proven methodologies are encouraged, not pooh-poohed. If someone could point me to the delete account button, I would be obliged.

Welcome to anxietyforum; I hope you will give us a chance, there are a lot of nice people here that are willing to listen. If you look around here a bit, you will see that there are many different views on topics and they are not always in (total) agreement. Since I've been a member, I've not noticed that there is any specific agenda here other than a safe place to share ideas for those with anxiety. Sometimes we even just go off topic and distract ourselves from our anxiety (distraction is sometimes also a good coping mechanism).

As I say.. since I've been a member, from what I can tell, the staff pretty much leaves us alone as long as we behave ourselves. Sure, I've seen some tense moments here and there and people that are super passionate within regard to what believe, but (Normally) people don't push anything onto other members; I wouldn't say anything is encouraged or discouraged here.

Have a look around and feel free to start a new thread and we are happy to here what you have to say.

Take good care :)

EDIT: I've been reading your posting in its entirety now and I (truly) wish I could offer some solid advice for you for everything you're going through, but I'd grasping at straws. I guess I'll just say this much though, some of us here aren't working at all (I'm not at the moment, but hope one day this will turn-around for me). Jobs are hard to come by these days and many struggle with jobs they hate, but the bills have to get paid somehow. I think your doing quite well given your circumstances to be able to work at all. Good luck with starting your own business and I hope your first exhibition goes well.

Again, I wish you well!

[gypsylee]

Hi and welcome,

PanicCured is not the Big Dude here lol.. I am ;)

Nah noone is. I actually like it because moderated forums can be really anal eg. Mention suicide and your post is gone. Here you can say anything. So it's a double-edged sword - people will say things you think are complete bs but at the same time you can talk your own shit. It's like the Wild West of Anxiety!

Cheers,
Gypsy x

[jessed03]

Hey,

If you message the mods, they'll delete your account. I'd encourage you to stay, though! I've met some of the nicest, most supportive people on this forum. Some of whom I'm still in contact with today.

PanicCured leans towards the Linden Method way of healing (which is an holistic anti-med strategy). Charles Linden's approach didn't work for me, but if you read reviews of his book, some people seem to find value in his methods.

Personally, I'm a lot like you when it comes to treatment. I prefer that which has been tested and validated.

You'll find lots of different people and philosophies on here. Just stick to those that suit you best. :)

[RossySoonDone]

The list of illnesses you describe as being diagnosed with all stem from anxiety - don't see them as separate illnesses. If you have a cold or the flu it manifests in many different ways but ultimately, if you cure yourself from the cold everything else related to it follows and that is also the case for anxiety so make anxiety your main focus, not everything in between.

You yourself mention that you built up a set of "coping mechanisms" over the years... if you're just looking to get by and cope with the anxiety then by all means seek a safe person or safe place. This however is counter productive of the healing path when you look to CURE yourself from anxiety, and thats what you should focus on doing because you can! :).

When Kirk says "what works for one person may not work for another" applies to the different types of coping mechanisms, sure. I mean, one person may prefer to be alone whereas another may seek comfort in others. HOWEVER, in terms of curing the nervous illness (which everyone surely should be aiming for), the fundamental principles to recovery remain the same and one of those principles is to not seek a safe person/safe, place as PanicCure suggests. Think about it, if every time you feel anxious or panicky and you seek safety, you're telling your subconscious that you need that safe place to feel a sense of normality. Its like having a child that cries every time he/she wants a toy or some candy when shopping; if you constantly give in to their plea it will eventually make them associate throwing a tantrum to getting what they want, and we all know how this ends up in the long run...

The attitude you take towards the information given is not the right attitude to take if you wish to be CURED. By no means is anyone stopping you from deleting your account but I urge you to build a greater understanding! I hope that post from PanicCured does not deter you from the right path to recovery because forums such as this can be a very counterproductive place if you look in the wrong areas.

You can do it LadyAustringer!

[RossySoonDone]

It didn't work for you because you likely didn't do everything as explained! It takes a while to comply but I'm slowly but surely getting there. For one, even being on this forum and finding different philosophies is not the right move for recovery, you should surely know this if you did the method.

[jessed03]

It didn't work for you because you likely didn't do everything as explained! It takes a while to comply but I'm slowly but surely getting there. For one, even being on this forum and finding different philosophies is not the right move for recovery, you should surely know this if you did the method.

Just because someone rejects the spurious claims of the Linden Method, doesn't mean they didn't do everything Charles proposes properly.

I gave the program a fair try, but found it was too basic and too superficial for my needs. My anxiety stemmed from trauma and unhealthy beliefs. Sitting up straight and forcing myself to go to class every day didn't quite cut it when it came to a cure.

I appreciate the Linden Method may help mild cases of anxiety, and that some people have benefited from it, but let's cut the crap. I don't know whether you're one of Charles' many paid mouthpieces. I don't care. I just want you to stop alluding to the fact there's a one-size-fits-all approach to anxiety. There's a reason no major health provider and no major scientific body has endorsed the Linden Method in the 25 years it's been around. Because it doesn't stack up to rigorous scrutiny.

So leave people to explore in order to find the philosophy and method that works best for them.

And fyi, your understanding of the subconscious mind is amateur. It isn't like a child, it's a complex processing system. Its job is to communicate with another part of the brain in order to help you survive. Sometimes messages between the two can become mixed-up and a Linden-like approach is useful. But sometimes anxiety is the subconscious mind alerting the conscious, rational mind that there's a serious imbalance that needs fixing. Quitting meds and ignoring the problem like Linden suggests can be catastrophic. And of course people like you then come along and accuse such people of not following the method properly.

I'd have far more respect for the method if Linden was honest and less manipulative, and admitted his method was one idea, and not the "cure all" that he claims.

[gypsylee]

I prefer the Zef Method myself.

https://youtu.be/cegdR0GiJl4

I'm not even joking actually. This whole Linden approach sounds boring. A lot of people with anxiety and other mental illnesses are that way inclined because they have an imaginative, creative nature. It just goes a bit haywire in a world that doesn't particularly value creativity. So this "stiff upper lip" stuff isn't going to cut it and thank god for that or we'd have more boring damn people covering the planet.

[fixmybrokenmind]

Seems she was scared off by somebody trying to help...

Hopefully she went to somewhere where "medically proven methodologies are encouraged" AKA your local doctors office.

[PanicCured]

Wait... is there a way to delete my account? I've been reading some of "PanicCured"s articles and they seem like 1) he's the Big Dude here and 2) what he says is utter hogwash. Like, seriously. I'd like to see some of his sources that aren't "I took a bunch of supplements and I dunno but now I'm cured". What kind of snake oil is this place??

"If you are having a panic attack, do not seek a safe person or safe place. The seeking will make you feel worse. All you have to do is sit and do nothing and allow the chemicals to pass through you and metabolize. It can go away in a matter of minutes if you just sit and relax, and watch it flow by you. The symptoms are caused by passing chemicals but they will only pass if you let them. Ride it out. Let it pass. It only takes a few minutes."

Ha. That is not cured- that is learned helplessness. If you tie a terrified dog up next to the thing it is terrified of, then sure, eventually it will stop screaming and trying to get away. But that is not teaching the dog how to deal with the situation, or that the situation is not dangerous. That just teaches that the learner has no effect on the environment. That is right dangerous, dudes. Flooding is no way to train an animal, and if we would not train an animal that way, why the heck would we use the method on people.

If that is the caliber of help offered here by owners-moderators-whatever-he-is, I am better off elsewhere- where medically proven methodologies are encouraged, not pooh-poohed. If someone could point me to the delete account button, I would be obliged.

This is funny! That is why you are not better and I am. Ask anyone who is free anxiety that once had it, they didn't get better by following the voices in their heads. The change in behavior IS the cure! Seeking a safe space and safe person IS the disease! You are retraining your brain. After you do this for a few months your brain gets used to the idea that you don't need to rush to your safe space. It is actually a training process. Actually, doing this a few time you will notice benefit. You know how you get over the fear of flying? BY FLYING a lot and working through the anxiety while on the plane. Go ahead, live in denial for all I care.

[PanicCured]

Seems she was scared off by somebody trying to help...

Hopefully she went to somewhere where "medically proven methodologies are encouraged" AKA your local doctors office.

Ah yes let's see, how many people's anxiety were cured by doctors? I think their numbers are up from 0 last year to 0 this year! Great job their doing. Look at all these wonderful people here who were totally cured of their panic disorder by taking pills. Yes, all those proven methods maybe aren't so proven after all. But don't worry, climate change is the real cause of anxiety. Or is it Global Warming, wait what happened to that hole in the ozone layer that was going to cause mass extinction, or what about saving the rainforests? I thought cutting down trees in Brazil for McDonalds hamburgers was the cause of the global destruction.

[jessed03]

This is funny! That is why you are not better and I am. Ask anyone who is free anxiety that once had it, they didn't get better by following the voices in their heads. The change in behavior IS the cure! Seeking a safe space and safe person IS the disease! You are retraining your brain. After you do this for a few months your brain gets used to the idea that you don't need to rush to your safe space. It is actually a training process. Actually, doing this a few time you will notice benefit. You know how you get over the fear of flying? BY FLYING a lot and working through the anxiety while on the plane. Go ahead, live in denial for all I care.

Still making those far out presumptions, I see. Some things never change.

The Linden Method is only one method of inducing deep behavioural change. And it's only mildly effective. Most of your thoughts and actions arise from subconscious beliefs. Linden's assuming those will correct automatically if you just "fake it till you make it"... Research has shown that isn't a reliable way of treating anxiety. Which is probably why despite 25 years in business and "thousands of cures" he's never managed to provide reliable evidence his theory works. (He makes you believe he has, though, by using self-funded studies).

I'm not going to tell you that better posture, breathing, exercise and zest for life are bad for anxiety. They're not. But anybody who says there's one way to cure anxiety and theirs is it is a snakeoil salesman.

[RossySoonDone]

You say that sitting up straight and forcing yourself to go to class everyday didn't quite cut it. You make it sound like a chore, the fundamental path to healing in the linden method is to find something you're passionate about and commit to it 100%, this clearly shouldn't feel like a chore once you're on the right path. Sitting up straight in a chair is just 1% of the method and going to class everyday is something you HAVE to do, just like shopping or eating. You have to engross yourself in mind stimulating activity and even if this takes you 1 year before you get on the right track, at least you're making progress! Don't even see it as the Linden Method, make it your mission to find a purpose and stick with it and everything else will become obsolete in time.

You say trauma and unhealthy beliefs. Please explain to me how some of the most traumatised human beings to ever step foot on the earth came back from World War 2, nervous down to every cell in their bodies and unable to even walk straight because of the amount of REAL emotional trauma sustained, still managed to 100% cure themselves from anxiety, PTSD or whatever you wish to call it. Watch this short film and maybe you will find less pity in your current situation of "trauma" and "unhealthy beliefs". Skip to 24:55 if you don't want to watch the whole thing. Essentially, the ex-soldiers find therapy and relief in engrossing themselves in mechanics, hobby-horse making, gymnastics, team sports like baseball, painting - THEY'RE FINDING A PASSION AND STICKING TO IT. And if you wish to see how they start of, watch the start of the documentary.

Search on youtube - Let There Be Light - 1946 (Restored Image and Sound)
"The final entry in a trilogy of films produced for the U.S. government by John Huston. This documentary film follows 75 U.S. soldiers who have sustained debilitating emotional trauma and depression. A series of scenes chronicle their entry into a psychiatric hospital, their treatment and eventual recovery."


Whatever unhealthy beliefs you have currently, none of them hold more weight then your attitude towards complete recovery. At this rate you will continue to live in a perpetual state of anxiety, posting on this forum and adding to your tally of 7000 posts. I am not a paid mouthpiece, I am someone who has spent pretty much all their life anxious and in the past 3 years SEVERELY anxious (or traumatised as you describe it), but I know for a fact I will be cured because I am taking the necessary steps towards the recovery and I feel better every day. You can too if you stop feeling sorry for yourself and stop blaming your "traumatised" circumstances as a reason to not find recovery, the first stop is believing you will be cured.

Oh, and also maybe stop spending so much time on this forum. I think in the 7000 posts you've made you're pretty much well informed on what works/doesn't work and maybe now your realise that there isn't a miracle cure, diet, pill or exercise routine to recovery. They will help recovery yes, but ultimately, its up to you to do the damn ground work if you wish to be cured. Good luck :) I really hope this will act as your wakeup call.

[PanicCured]

Still making those far out presumptions, I see. Some things never change.

The Linden Method is only one method of inducing deep behavioural change. And it's only mildly effective. Most of your thoughts and actions arise from subconscious beliefs. Linden's assuming those will correct automatically if you just "fake it till you make it"... Research has shown that isn't a reliable way of treating anxiety. Which is probably why despite 25 years in business and "thousands of cures" he's never managed to provide reliable evidence his theory works. (He makes you believe he has, though, by using self-funded studies).

I'm not going to tell you that better posture, breathing, exercise and zest for life are bad for anxiety. They're not. But anybody who says there's one way to cure anxiety and theirs is it is a snakeoil salesman.

You keep going on about this Linden Method tirade. I am not Charles Linden nor do I agree with everything he says. My presumptions are correct! The reason I and many others are better and that poster is not, is directly displayed in her post.

[jessed03]

You say that sitting up straight and forcing yourself to go to class everyday didn't quite cut it. You make it sound like a chore, the fundamental path to healing in the linden method is to find something you're passionate about and commit to it 100%, this clearly shouldn't feel like a chore once you're on the right path. Sitting up straight in a chair is just 1% of the method and going to class everyday is something you HAVE to do, just like shopping or eating. You have to engross yourself in mind stimulating activity and even if this takes you 1 year before you get on the right track, at least you're making progress! Don't even see it as the Linden Method, make it your mission to find a purpose and stick with it and everything else will become obsolete in time.

You say trauma and unhealthy beliefs. Please explain to me how some of the most traumatised human beings to ever step foot on the earth came back from World War 2, nervous down to every cell in their bodies and unable to even walk straight because of the amount of REAL emotional trauma sustained, still managed to 100% cure themselves from anxiety, PTSD or whatever you wish to call it. Watch this short film and maybe you will find less pity in your current situation of "trauma" and "unhealthy beliefs". Skip to 24:55 if you don't want to watch the whole thing. Essentially, the ex-soldiers find therapy and relief in engrossing themselves in mechanics, hobby-horse making, gymnastics, team sports like baseball, painting - THEY'RE FINDING A PASSION AND STICKING TO IT. And if you wish to see how they start of, watch the start of the documentary.

Search on youtube - Let There Be Light - 1946 (Restored Image and Sound)
"The final entry in a trilogy of films produced for the U.S. government by John Huston. This documentary film follows 75 U.S. soldiers who have sustained debilitating emotional trauma and depression. A series of scenes chronicle their entry into a psychiatric hospital, their treatment and eventual recovery."


Whatever unhealthy beliefs you have currently, none of them hold more weight then your attitude towards complete recovery. At this rate you will continue to live in a perpetual state of anxiety, posting on this forum and adding to your tally of 7000 posts. I am not a paid mouthpiece, I am someone who has spent pretty much all their life anxious and in the past 3 years SEVERELY anxious (or traumatised as you describe it), but I know for a fact I will be cured because I am taking the necessary steps towards the recovery and I feel better every day. You can too if you stop feeling sorry for yourself and stop blaming your "traumatised" circumstances as a reason to not find recovery, the first stop is believing you will be cured.

Oh, and also maybe stop spending so much time on this forum. I think in the 7000 posts you've made you're pretty much well informed on what works/doesn't work and maybe now your realise that there isn't a miracle cure, diet, pill or exercise routine to recovery. They will help recovery yes, but ultimately, its up to you to do the damn ground work if you wish to be cured. Good luck :) I really hope this will act as your wakeup call.

Well, I don't really suffer from anxiety any more. I just come here out of habit, like PanicCured. Extensive CBT and delving into my past to deal with repressed traumas has left me in a pretty good place. Medication helped a lot, too.

I know I'd never have gotten better relying on the Linden Method alone. Hell, for two years I believed fully it was the holy grail. But as I said earlier, Linden's methodology is fairly simplistic. "Fake it til you make it" sometimes works, but it's an unreliable way of changing the brain.

A book that is a million times better (and a million times cheaper) is the Anxiety and Phobia Workbook. It discusses everything Linden discusses (posture, purpose, meditation), but also includes therapies with actual evidence behind them, like CBT and medication. If you're one of the many across the internet disillusioned with the Linden Method after trying it, give that book a go. Unlike Linden, the author hasn't been ripped about by the Advertising Standards Agency (https://www.asa.org.uk/Rulings/Adjudications/2011/11/The-Linden-Centre/SHP_ADJ_153052.aspx#.WIy-NmdIztQ) for gross fabrications, either.

Thanks for writing a post with the intention of helping, though.

[PanicCured]

Well, I don't really suffer from anxiety any more. I just come here out of habit, like PanicCured. Extensive CBT and delving into my past to deal with repressed traumas has left me in a pretty good place. Medication helped a lot, too.

I know I'd never have gotten better relying on the Linden Method alone. Hell, for two years I believed fully it was the holy grail. But as I said earlier, Linden's methodology is fairly simplistic. "Fake it til you make it" sometimes works, but it's an unreliable way of changing the brain.

A book that is a million times better (and a million times cheaper) is the Anxiety and Phobia Workbook. It discusses everything Linden discusses (posture, purpose, meditation), but also includes therapies with actual evidence behind them, like CBT and medication. If you're one of the many across the internet disillusioned with the Linden Method after trying it, give that book a go. Unlike Linden, the author hasn't been ripped about by the Advertising Standards Agency (https://www.asa.org.uk/Rulings/Adjudications/2011/11/The-Linden-Centre/SHP_ADJ_153052.aspx#.WIy-NmdIztQ) for gross fabrications, either.

Thanks for writing a post with the intention of helping, though.

Why do you keep bringing up the Linden Method? I actually got in an argument with him once. He told me he wouldn't help me unless I proved I bought his program. Then I tore him a new one and his wife tells me what a horrible person I was for saying such terrible things about such a wonderful man! But he addresses some key stuff like piercing thought he illusion of safe spaces and safe people.

My main strategies are basically CBT. The same stuff that helped you. I never did officially CBT, but I did my own behavior retraining stuff.

You guys over complicate everything. It's all really simple!