"Promoting" rational thoughts

[m@rk]

I won't go into massive detail about what my problem is, because I understand it and have accepted what I need to do. The trouble is, I'm not entirely sure how to do it.

In a nutshell, I have irrational thoughts and know they are irrational. But also, squeaking away in the back of my mind, are the rational versions.

So what I need to do is make the rational thoughts somehow swamp out the negatives. The only trouble is, those rational thoughts are basically double negatives (e.g. "something bad won't happen", but that doesn't mean "something good will happen").

I'll give an example (but this isn't what I'm thinking!) - "I could get hit by a car tomorrow": irrational; "I won't get hit by a car tomorrow": rational, but still referencing the bad event.

I hope people know what I mean and can help here. It's not really major, in that's not impacting on my life, but it's irritating me and leaving me with knots in my stomach.

Thanks in advance.

[northstar]

hi m@rk, i know exactly what you mean, knowing your thoughts are irrational but just not being able to do anything about it! i found psychotherapy very helpful, my counsellor guided me through learning to trust the more rational side to my personality and the irrational voice got smaller and smaller. of course it's not totally gone, but i've accepted that i'm a worrier! the biggest change is that irrational thinking no longer dominates my thoughts, i'm able to engage with the rational part of me much easier and i don't get into knots of worry about ridiculous things. you may like to try something similar if you're not already, after years of not being able to control the irrationality myself i finally realised i needed help that i couldn't do it by myself, but through therapy i learned it is a strength and not a weakness to ask for help :)

[Robbed]

of course it's not totally gone, but i've accepted that i'm a worrier! the biggest change is that irrational thinking no longer dominates my thoughts, i'm able to engage with the rational part of me much easier and i don't get into knots of worry about ridiculous things.

I think it is perhaps better for you to think of yourself as a normal human in this respect than a 'worrier' or a 'diseased' person. After all, NOBODY doesn't have irrational thoughts. And NOBODY doesn't have worries. Contrary to what ANY therapist or psychiatrist might tell you, it is NOT normal to have nothing but sugar-coated, positive thoughts. And negative thoughts CAN serve a purpose at times. They are only abnormal when they dominate and push you into a depression and/or anxiety state. Having negative thoughts at times, but being able to put them into perspective is what being a well-balanced person is all about.

[northstar]

of course it's not totally gone, but i've accepted that i'm a worrier! the biggest change is that irrational thinking no longer dominates my thoughts, i'm able to engage with the rational part of me much easier and i don't get into knots of worry about ridiculous things.

I think it is perhaps better for you to think of yourself as a normal human in this respect than a 'worrier' or a 'diseased' person. After all, NOBODY doesn't have irrational thoughts. And NOBODY doesn't have worries. Contrary to what ANY therapist or psychiatrist might tell you, it is NOT normal to have nothing but sugar-coated, positive thoughts. And negative thoughts CAN serve a purpose at times. They are only abnormal when they dominate and push you into a depression and/or anxiety state. Having negative thoughts at times, but being able to put them into perspective is what being a well-balanced person is all about.

that's a really good point robbed! thinking of myself as a worrier is actually not a very positive point of view to take! what i mean is that i tend to worry about things more than other people, but i think it just shows a caring concerned part of my personality and i wouldn't like to be any other way. i'm incredibly sensitive and it makes me more concerned than other people, and sometimes i wish i wasn't that way, but mostly i like who i am :)

[Robbed]

that's a really good point robbed! thinking of myself as a worrier is actually not a very positive point of view to take! what i mean is that i tend to worry about things more than other people, but i think it just shows a caring concerned part of my personality and i wouldn't like to be any other way. i'm incredibly sensitive and it makes me more concerned than other people, and sometimes i wish i wasn't that way, but mostly i like who i am :)

Thinking of yourself as a 'worrier' also implants into the subconscious the idea that this is something which you cannot do anything about. And it is just this sort of thing that REALLY bothers me about the medical establishment's view of anxiety disorder - it is looked at as an organic disease which you cannot change in any way other than medicating it away. Of course, if you actually CHOOSE to be a worrier, then you probably aren't going to make much effort to change matters. On the other hand, it is all too easy to think about your shortcomings as a problem that is fairly unique to yourself. After all, there is NO WAY of knowing what goes on in other people's heads - you can't take someone else's brain for a test drive. But if you could, I am sure you would find that even 'normal' people DO worry a decent amount about various things.

[m@rk]

hi m@rk, i know exactly what you mean, knowing your thoughts are irrational but just not being able to do anything about it! i found psychotherapy very helpful, my counsellor guided me through learning to trust the more rational side to my personality and the irrational voice got smaller and smaller. of course it's not totally gone, but i've accepted that i'm a worrier! the biggest change is that irrational thinking no longer dominates my thoughts, i'm able to engage with the rational part of me much easier and i don't get into knots of worry about ridiculous things. you may like to try something similar if you're not already, after years of not being able to control the irrationality myself i finally realised i needed help that i couldn't do it by myself, but through therapy i learned it is a strength and not a weakness to ask for help :)
Hi northstar, thanks for the reply.

To be honest, I don't believe my worrying is at such a stage where I need to take up the time of a counsellor. It doesn't impact on my day-to-day life and only seems to manifest when I'm either alone, or in a situation I'm already finding upsetting (either rationally or irrationally, such as watching a TV programme that's emotional).

I also have this habit of searching on the Internet to try and reassure me, but for every bit of reassurance there's always something that hits me where it hurts, so to speak.

The being alone is a major thing for me at the moment. I can't go to bed at a reasonable time unless I know I've to get up early and right now, that's exactly the situation I'm in. Thankfully, that will be over by next week at this time, but there's still weekends to take into consideration.

If I'm being honest, my biggest worry is the worrying itself, knowing that I'm being irrational but seemingly having no way of stopping it. And then it's what puts these worries in my mind in the first place: I grab hold of something and just can't let go. What will be the next thing to do that?

I'm now starting to wonder if all I need right now is a damn good cry to let all my emotion drain out!

Sorry if this seems like I'm rambling, but it's good to get things off my chest like this. :)

[northstar]

To be honest, I don't believe my worrying is at such a stage where I need to take up the time of a counsellor. It doesn't impact on my day-to-day life and only seems to manifest when I'm either alone, or in a situation I'm already finding upsetting

hi again m@rk, the decision is totally up to you and if you don't feel the need for it then no problem :) but please, don't feel that you would be taking up the time of a counsellor! they get paid, it's their job, they're out there to help people like you and me! it took me a long time to come around to the idea too, there's such a stigma around therapy. even when i went to talk to my doctor about it, it took me at least 2 weeks before i had the courage to call the number she gave me for a counsellor.

it turned out that it was one of the BEST decisions i ever made! i totally reccommend therapy to everyone and anyone, anxiety problems or no. to have a space in which to be able to explore my issues (and not just anxiety, even day to day troubles with my boyfriend or family or work colleagues) with someone who has an open mind and good advice was one of the best things i ever discovered. it helped me get my head together about so many things, and to get my priorities in line :)

anyway, i'll stop rambling, obviously it's not for everyone and not all therapists are good. i just wanted you to hold in your mind that it's an option for you if you ever feel the need & you should never feel like you are wasting a therapists time :)

[m@rk]

I guess that's just another worry: worrying about going to a counsellor with something pretty trivial!

I do believe that next week I'll start to feel fine again. If you search back, you'll see that my first posts on here were last year at around this time, because the summer months see me out of uni and with nothing to do, so I'm massively bored. This allows my mind to dwell on things.

I'll say now that my worrying actually relates to the LHC. The first I properly heard of it was reading a post on an Internet forum, which led me to find out more about it...and of course the first stuff I read was from people claiming it would end the world.

I've since found studies, reports and interviews that rubbish these fears, but because it was the fears I read first, they keep swamping my mind. So I go in search of stuff to put my mind at rest...only to find more doom-mongers.

Thankfully, I've now found an interview with the chief scientist and with Stephen Hawking, so if the worries start to surface again, I read those and it calms me down.

Strangely, my mind is also put at rest by two things that should really make me worry more:

1) simply seeing people, on TV or in the street and thinking "if the World does end, they'll be gone too, so it's not just me
2) if we do get sucked into a black hole, then we won't know anything about it. In fact, it's probably the "least worst" way to die!

[kaialian]

I'll give an example (but this isn't what I'm thinking!) - "I could get hit by a car tomorrow": irrational; "I won't get hit by a car tomorrow": rational, but still referencing the bad event.


Hi M@rk! Can I suggest that if you truly want to be free of the irrational thoughts, try coming up with positive counter statement with no negatives. Instead of thinking "I won't get hit by a car tomorrow" perhaps say, "I am aware of my surroundings and am safe" Instead of using "won't" try to think of something different.

I have been working on refuting some of my irrational thoughts and I find it easier if the responses are totally positive.

[northstar]

I guess that's just another worry: worrying about going to a counsellor with something pretty trivial!


one of the first things a counsellor will tell you is that your problems aren't trivial. i went through the same thing, thinking i was being silly. eventually i realised that the voice that told me it was trivial was part of a negative attitude i had towards myself. the counselling helped me to be more kind to myself and to actually listen, without judgement, to my needs, and also to accept that i had a problem and needed help :) it took a while to see that though lol.

i only hope that you are not holding back because you feel your problems aren't worth acting on. your good mental health and wellbeing are incredibly important, learn to be good to yourself and to act on your needs. i know you say you'll be ok once you get back to being busy again, and distraction really is a good thing for anxiety, but you should also be able to spend time on your own without falling into those negative, fearful thought patterns. if you need help doing that then it's nothing trivial :) perhaps learning meditation might be a good one for you? learning to be at peace with yourself and your thoughts through meditation may help. there is a buddist concept called Mindfullness that you might find interesting, it is all about living in the present and being mindful about all that you do rather than letting your mind wander off and begin to worry.

about the hadron collider, i initially shared your fear, but let go of it surprisingly quickly. when i say surprisingly i mean a year ago something like that would have had me far more worried and upset for much much longer. it is actually something that quite a lot of people around the world are worried about, but then again we get little things like this every now and again when people start to fear en masse that it's the end of human kind. remember Y2K? we were all going to die then! or SARS? or bird flu? neuclear war? at the moment it's climate change, energy price hikes (ie poverty), collapsing economies, falling house prices, credit card debt, terrorists and the ever threatening flu epidemic. these days i blame the media for a lot of it (or the "tragedy vultures" as i like to call them). they just love to stir up fear and a good bankrupcy or hurricane just sets them all in a flurry of telling us the horrors of what could possibly happen. we would know nothing about the hadron collider if it wasn't for them.

basically i feel often that we live in a society saturated in information, but also saturated in fear, i am not surprised that anxiety seems to be a modern epidemic. sometimes i long for a more sheltered life where i don't have to be exposed to all this stuff in every day life, but then again what kind of life would that be with my head in the sand?

i also have been thinking lately that our new lack of religion/spirituality has a lot to do with fear in modern society. once upon a time there was a god to rely on to take care of things, no matter how crap life was you knew if you lived it well you'd be heading to heaven at the end of it all, and many people lived their lives on earth in preparation for the wonders of the afterlife. these days we don't have the same faith, and without a great protector to look after us all we feel a lot more vulnerable and at a loss. i know personally this is a problem for me. i was raised as a catholic, but never really felt it was me. as a teenager i studied paganism and wicca. but as i grew older and saw more of the world i lost faith, sometimes i like to think that i am looked after by angels, but if i am honest with myself even that tiny bit of faith is hollow. i think the same lack of faith really contributes to anxiety in many people who are sensitive. do you find the same thing?


look at this, i've ranted for far longer than i intended to! i hope i haven't bored you lol, i guess i was just putting some thought out there :)

[Robbed]

at the moment it's climate change, energy price hikes (ie poverty), collapsing economies, falling house prices, credit card debt, terrorists and the ever threatening flu epidemic. these days i blame the media for a lot of it (or the "tragedy vultures" as i like to call them).

Keep in mind that not ALL of these things are entirely bad. For instance, energy price hikes are a good thing in the sense that they actually make us conserve (ie drive smaller, more sensible cars), encourage the development of alternatives to oil, and help prevent climate change (which truly IS a bad thing). Likewise, falling house prices are often looked at as bad because of the short-term effect they have on the economy and homeowners. BUT, do you REALLY want to live in a society where even a six figure income can't buy a 1000 square foot starter home, and where even doctors are forced to be life-long renters? Also, it is better not to look at housing prices as FALLING. Rather, they are just going back to where they SHOULD be after being artificially high for years.


i also have been thinking lately that our new lack of religion/spirituality has a lot to do with fear in modern society. once upon a time there was a god to rely on to take care of things, no matter how crap life was you knew if you lived it well you'd be heading to heaven at the end of it all, and many people lived their lives on earth in preparation for the wonders of the afterlife. these days we don't have the same faith, and without a great protector to look after us all we feel a lot more vulnerable and at a loss. i know personally this is a problem for me. i was raised as a catholic, but never really felt it was me. as a teenager i studied paganism and wicca. but as i grew older and saw more of the world i lost faith, sometimes i like to think that i am looked after by angels, but if i am honest with myself even that tiny bit of faith is hollow. i think the same lack of faith really contributes to anxiety in many people who are sensitive. do you find the same thing?

Religion is VERY much a double-edged sword when it comes to anxiety. Yes, SOME people can find comfort in it. But keep in mind that, according to most religious teachings, not everybody goes to heaven when they die. And God is often made out to be jealous, vengeful, and (quite frankly) a little emotionally unstable. This is particulaly true these days, as religion seems to be growing more and more extremist in nature (and I'm not just talking about Islam). As a result, religion seems to be growing more fear-based - using fear of what God will do if you don't 'tow the line' in order to keep you in line (and 'keeping you in line' often means making you believe and promote stupid stuff like Earth is only 4000 years old and humans walked the earth with the dinosaurs). I personally think people suffering from anxiety are better off WITHOUT hearing this kind of garbage.