That "Feeling"

[Jay Williams]

Don't you guys hate that feeling when panick is creeping up on you? I always feel it in my stomach..creeping up on me.. and I'm thinking "everythings gonna be ok(saying it over and over to myself).. and sometimes it helps. I hate when it comes out of nowhere..that feeling (heartrate getting faster).. what do you guys do when it' starting to happen? I try breathing and thinking of something else. Sometimes it just comes out of nowhere! I was sitting on the toilet and BAM it started!

I wish it would go away, these nervous feelings.

[NixonRulz]

For years I did the same thing. Fought the feelings and tried to distract myself

After years of making 0 progress, I started welcoming it when I felt those feelings.

"Okay, give me your best shot". " oh, good. I hope this one is a good one"

Once I would welcome it and make it my pal, it went away

Fighting always makes it worse.

I just relaxed and let it come and go regardless of where I was

Pretty soon after, they never came back. I wasnt afraid anymore of it so I took away my Anxiety's power

[Gingerbreadelf]

Cool Nixon. I hope I can get to that thinking very soon. I'm taking some power away but not at that "bring it" type of ownership yet. Getting there though.

Yes that is the anticipatory anxiety or "free floating" as it is known. I don't think it's necessarily something you have to embrace..anxiety isn't there to make you like it or feel good, it is there because you feel danger (justified) or not, it's there til the precived threat is gone. While in the midst of an attack I've found instead of trying to relax your mind, you just have to ride it out as if you're going up a steep hill, you're gonna come back down sooner or later but while in the attack, you have to distract yourself. Tighten your muscles (if stuck in a place you can't exit)... Go to the bathroom.. Just keep going til you're home free! I see it as a bodily function that has to do its thing like a number 1 or 2 in the bathroom, lol it feels awful but won't go away til it's done its business.

[Gingerbreadelf]

I appreciate all of your post Elf. This just made me laugh too. I will keep it in mind next time I go out!

hah, well, it's true, I just find when people say you have to force yourself to "think good thoughts and be calm" or try to "embrace the fear" it makes the attack worse, cause you simply can't when in that state. That's not to say you shouldn't try and find ways to relax, but, during an attack, where panic has consumed the mind, it is quite hard..why I say it's better to just ride them out in instances where you can't escape, if you're at work, eating at a restaurant, in the line at a store etc.. At home, you obviously have more options, you can do whatever you want at home to allieviate it, run around screaming like a hyena, take a cold shower, or vomit..go to bed, whatever it is people do to find relief... lol

[jessed03]

You say it's hard. It is. That was Nixons point. It is emotional mastery, and a panic destroyer. What it isn't, is easy :)

[Gingerbreadelf]

It's not really so necessary to destroy or "master" the panic really, because, the attacks aren't the problem at the end of the day, it is the reason for them happening that is.. they won't go away til the core problem causing them goes away.. even so, you can't avoid life while you're suffering from attacks, even though deep down you wish you could sometimes.

[Gingerbreadelf]

To make myself a bit more clear, take for example, a spouse that's in a terrible marriage, say it's a wife who's husband cheats on her and abuses her, while she remains married to him, she feels the situation is god awful, she starts getting panic attacks everyday.. but she isn't quite ready to divorce him yet, or she perhaps he is afraid to for fear of being alone, never finding another partner..she may feel there is no way out....could be a number of things.. but the point is, she's unhappy. So there is the cause of the attacks (her husband) til things resolve themselves, til she walks out on him, or divorces him, anxiety attacks are going to continue to plague her.. That is how it is for probably everyone on this forum suffering from anxiety, they are unhappy about something and that something is probably big, and it's causing them some major panic attack earthquakes in their world.. :(

They don't have to accept or embrace their attacks, just have to live through them and try to make life a bit easier for themselves to cope while going through a difficult time of grief or whatever else it is upsetting them on a big scale.

[jessed03]

Well they are reactive sensations based on stimulus. They are normal. They are what the amygdala was programmed to react to. They aren't meant to be removed, or calmed down, as they are evolutionary calls to action, or stages of processing.

Nixon is talking about panic attacks with no problematic stimulus. Say perhaps panics attacks due to bad thoughts, a fear, or due to fear of another panic attack.

Everyone has panic attacks here more or less due to over active amygdalas. If the reason for that over reaction is legitimate, then that is very different to somebody who's amygdala has become over reactive unnecessarily.

The woman in your example is scared of abuse.

The OP here is scared of fear.

So I hope that explains Nixons comment to you, regarding becoming comfortable with fear, in order to stop fearing it.

Those people in your examples have bigger issues than anxiety, such as avoidant behaviour, low self esteem, lack of logistic possibility, perhaps even Stockholm syndrome. Big difference. Their fear is telling them to overcome, change or understand something. OPs fear and anxiety is simply bullying him, and needs it's powers removed. :)

[GeneAllen]

For years I did the same thing. Fought the feelings and tried to distract myself

After years of making 0 progress, I started welcoming it when I felt those feelings.

"Okay, give me your best shot". " oh, good. I hope this one is a good one"

Once I would welcome it and make it my pal, it went away

Fighting always makes it worse.

I just relaxed and let it come and go regardless of where I was

Pretty soon after, they never came back. I wasnt afraid anymore of it so I took away my Anxiety's power

That's some very grand advice. It works, takes some courage to do, but just allow it, surrender to it, and you'll see the rebound anxiety loses it's ability to threaten you. This is a game of bluff. When we fight the mind we lose! Be encouraged though we are not the mind, but we can confuse ourselves as being it. We are not the thoughts, We simply are, we're watching it all play out, and this is why anxiety appears to be so illogical, we know we're not "IT". We're simply noticing the anxiety race around until we stop defending it the war rages on. I sure hope this makes a little sense, it does to me, but I'm not the most articulate dude in the camp. Peace :D

[GeneAllen]

All excellent posts. WOW. Tightening my muscles and say stop and letting my arms just drop and feel that release is very helpful, and I mean very very helpful. It also relieves the build up of cortisol and adrenaline. Everyone has something to offer here. Do what resonates with you. Peace

[Gingerbreadelf]

Well they are reactive sensations based on stimulus. They are normal. They are what the amygdala was programmed to react to. They aren't meant to be removed, or calmed down, as they are evolutionary calls to action, or stages of processing.

Nixon is talking about panic attacks with no problematic stimulus. Say perhaps panics attacks due to bad thoughts, a fear, or due to fear of another panic attack.

Everyone has panic attacks here more or less due to over active amygdalas. If the reason for that over reaction is legitimate, then that is very different to somebody who's amygdala has become over reactive unnecessarily.

The woman in your example is scared of abuse.

The OP here is scared of fear.

So I hope that explains Nixons comment to you, regarding becoming comfortable with fear, in order to stop fearing it.

Those people in your examples have bigger issues than anxiety, such as avoidant behaviour, low self esteem, lack of logistic possibility, perhaps even Stockholm syndrome. Big difference. Their fear is telling them to overcome, change or understand something. OPs fear and anxiety is simply bullying him, and needs it's powers removed. :)

You seem to be missing the point, no one's anxiety is coming from nowhere! This poster didn't clarify the reason he was feeling anxious nor did he/she fill in much detail of their life. Could be any number of reasons for why the op is anxious, but anyone suffering from reoccurant attacks is having more major issues than someone who's overall life stressors are lower. My example of the abused woman was to demonstrate someone who is going through big stress, fear and grief which is causing panic attacks too. But bad relationships aren't the only thing that can cause bad stress, as some of the examples you listed yourself social anxiety, low self esteem, crappy unfulfilling job, can also cause great stress which can in turn cause frequent attacks!

In one respect it's true you can overcome panic by educating yourself and understanding why it's happening..truste from experience I know that helps , but with all my knowledge and coping mechanisms, I still go through bouts of unbearable anxiety due to overpowering stresses and indesions.

So it all comes down to scales of life stressors causing people to suffer at this level. The attacks are something they can't effectively dispell til some bigger issues are resolved.

[GeneAllen]

You seem to be missing the point, no one's anxiety is coming from nowhere! This poster didn't clarify the reason he was feeling anxious nor did he/she fill in much detail of their life. Could be any number of reasons for why the op is anxious, but anyone suffering from reoccurant attacks is having more major issues than someone who's overall life stressors are lower. My example of the abused woman was to demonstrate someone who is going through big stress, fear and grief which is causing panic attacks too. But bad relationships aren't the only thing that can cause bad stress, as some of the examples you listed yourself social anxiety, low self esteem, crappy unfulfilling job, can also cause great stress which can in turn cause frequent attacks!

In one respect it's true you can overcome panic by educating yourself and understanding why it's happening..truste from experience I know that helps , but with all my knowledge and coping mechanisms, I still go through bouts of unbearable anxiety due to overpowering stresses and indesions.

So it all comes down to scales of life stressors causing people to suffer at this level. The attacks are something they can't effectively dispell til some bigger issues are resolved.

I can say mine are related to saying yes when I mean no. (lack of assertiveness). Blaming people (unforgiving). Guilt for not changing my beliefs about others, and sometimes I'm just damn right judgmental of others, and I found it all began with me judging me. Paradox!!!:D Peace

[jessed03]

Nope, you're right, anxiety doesn't come from nowhere, just a deceiving and disingenuous place, most of the time, for those not suffering immediate problems anyway.

It's an illusion of ego, the same way your OCD is. I've been a sufferer too!

But we personalize it. And that's a fatal mistake!

We attach a meaning to sensation, right at the beginning, and spend our lives sometimes, trying to undo that simple mistake. When you unattach it, and the sooner the better - you're gonna be on a good road.

Nixons post was about becoming the awareness that enables anxiety to come freely, act freely, and pass freely, thereby removing your identity from it. It's profound spiritual practice, and not easy! As gene said.

When life and death and spiritual fulfillment, are entertained in just one dimension of life - the physical or the mental - you're going to get an imbalance, no matter the state of your life, good or bad.

It's complicated, it's complicated. We're all at different stages. I wanted to post a similar thing to what Nixon did. I believe it seemed the best reply in this case. I remember most of my panic attacks in the end came from fear of another attack, rather than for any real reason. Once I managed to put that advice into practice, the anxiety remained a little, but the panic had left.

Nothing in the world can damage your awareness. It's perfect. It's unharmable. It doesn't feel pain. You are ALWAYS safe when you are there.
Tapping into that place instead of biting and involving yourself in your emotion and conflict - why that's where peace exists, and regardless of any situation on earth almost, will enhance your life greatly if you can live there.

But as I said in my first post, it's not easy in the slightest, but the closer we get, often the more peaceful we feel!

[jessed03]

^ of course I'm talking one dimensional myself here! there are many physical causes for anxiety too ;)

[jessed03]

If you wanna read more about what Nixons talking about, and how it helps anxiety - the owner of this forum has a book in the link below, which touches on the exact same formula. I think it's called Panic Puzzle? ... It's probably cheaper online... You all know what I'm implying here ;)

[jessed03]

And to tie my above post into what you said - you said most people are unhappy about something. So in that case their mental conflict is in reaction to something. When youre reacting to something, then your mind is in a very defensive state, one that encourages anxiety production.

When you're in the state of awareness, there is very little reaction. There is only observation of problematic thoughts or sensations - until they finally leave.

I think I finally got there!! I think it all ties together, lol

[NixonRulz]

[QUOTE="jessed03;145377"] I remember most of my panic attacks in the end came from fear of another attack, rather than for any real reason.

This was also true with me. It wasn't a deep locked up resentment or unhappiness with something or someone.

I just was always worried about my health. My own thoughts, more than anything caused me to panic.

I wish it was as easy as going to a head doc for a while and they ask me about my childhood until we had that "Eureka" moment., then everything goes away.

I was just worried about myself and I was pretty hyper sensitive to sensations I felt in my body.

[Gingerbreadelf]

[QUOTE="jessed03;145377"] I remember most of my panic attacks in the end came from fear of another attack, rather than for any real reason.

This was also true with me. It wasn't a deep locked up resentment or unhappiness with something or someone.

I just was always worried about my health. My own thoughts, more than anything caused me to panic.

I wish it was as easy as going to a head doc for a while and they ask me about my childhood until we had that "Eureka" moment., then everything goes away.

I was just worried about myself and I was pretty hyper sensitive to sensations I felt in my body.

Like I had said, there's varying degrees of it. If your major problem at the time was just fear of another attack, and no other real stressors, then it was probably quite easy for you to heal and not have any more after you educated yourself on panic attacks and found they were not going to kill you. I was too in that way, the first attack I had was when I was 22 (well, it wasn't my first, but at least the first one where it came into awareness and caused me to go to the hospital to check things out) nothing was wrong with me, I was just diagnosed with having a panic attack and went home.

I've always been an anxious type of person, but I didn't always have issues with panic disorder.. After the incident when I was 22, I was put on some low dosage of Zoloft.. I had a few more attacks after that in the weeks that followed, but they went away soon after. I was generally pretty content with the future at that time, I was young, and was happier.. and honestly panic attacks weren't the biggest problem for me again for many, many years. Then, back in 2009, anxiety started creeping back up into my life, when I began to feel less and less certain of the future.. and by 2010, I had my first major attack, and since, it's been a battle with anxiety daily, and I know why, I have not felt certain or happy about a great many things, I'd experienced a lot more, got my heart broken a few times, felt betrayed, hurt, and lost, I'd been through way more at that point, and the anxiety was more intense for sure this time around.

but, it comes and goes in waves, I can be most panic attack free for months at a time, then it comes back for a few months.. I'm always hyper aware of it..

It's harder to shake the anxiety during the stress I've been under, it's probably in large part due to my age, I'm still young, but I have decisions to make, and it's hard always worrying about the future and not knowing the best paths to take, unlike when I was 22 and it was so easy to bounce back from panic disorder..

but through my years of studying anxiety, and enduring it, I can tell you, it really does come down to overall life stressors, the bigger they are, the worse that anxiety will be.

So, when people talk of being able to overcome anxiety, and find their "happy" spot, and suddenly they are okay, that just is a flat out misconception! That is like saying you can cure deep depression simply by meditating for an afternoon and feeling good.. Cures to anxiety and depression happen with time, and life changes...

[jessed03]

You've misunderstood me a lil bit.

Awareness living instead of reactive living isn't a happy place or something you snap into. It's a complete change in perception of life, and the way you view things. It can take years to do it though. Doesn't make you bullet proof of course, you still need to take care of the other aspects of your life, it's just a much healthier state to live in, as brain studies show. It's great for soothing the amygdala

What we're saying isn't clashing, you usually have to take care of all aspects of your life to rid anxiety. This thread just seemed more about feeling anticipatory fear so that's what most of us addressed. If the OP had actual stressors as you mention, I'm just guessing he would have said, and Nixons post would instead been about how to address them.

Anyway

Relax, enjoy your Saturday night!

[NixonRulz]

If "probably quite easy" means about 15 years, then I guess I did overcame it pretty easy.

I don't doubt what you say is true, at least in your own case.

But you are stating fact covering anyone with anxiety/ panic disorder

Yes, stress will add to your anxiety, most know that

But there are so many ways people have overcome, or at least learned to live with their issues in a happy way

Some takes a week, some longer, depending on when you really start looking for answers and help.

Either way, it sounds as if you have mapped your course to recovery, which is a great thing.

[Gingerbreadelf]

What we're saying isn't clashing, you usually have to take care of all aspects of your life to rid anxiety. This thread just seemed more about feeling anticipatory fear so that's what most of us addressed. If the OP had actual stressors as you mention, I'm just guessing he would have said, and Nixons post would instead been about how to address them.



Well, I too was addressing what I believe is best to do when experiencing anticipatory fear (as I deal with this almost everyday of my life at the moment) and that is, to let the anxiety attack come and pass, and that is advice most any therapist would also give also.. My point was that the panic is not something you need to "master" or "conquer" or "embrace" because that is a bit pointless.. it's to except the fear is there, and cope as best as you can with it til the attack passes. and there's a lot of ways to cope, you do things you enjoy and that make you happy, even if you don't feel like doing them, they help..exercise, house cleaning, hot baths, video games, movies, other hobbies etc..

and that was my point, and you seem to want to argue it in the first place. In any case, that is where I stand on it, and what I write is through my own experience and from what I have read of others dealing with the same thing.

[Gingerbreadelf]

[QUOTE=NixonRulz;145489]"If "probably quite easy" means about 15 years, then I guess I did overcame it pretty easy."

You had said your only true anxiety was from fear of having another attack, so you at least gave me the impression that you didn't have the most severe case of anxiety.

"I don't doubt what you say is true, at least in your own case."

It's not just "in my own case" it's simply fact that when stress builds so does anxiety.

"But you are stating fact covering anyone with anxiety/ panic disorder"

No, I'm not, again, read line above. :)

"But there are so many ways people have overcome, or at least learned to live with their issues in a happy way"

Yes there are, as I had stated, doing things you love to do, even when it's hard, can work wonders.. medication, exericise, or meditation too, those things aren't going to solve the problem or make someone depressed and anxious feel happier about life necessarily, but it a way to cope and enjoy life again for a little while instead of living in constant fear.


So that is all I'm going to say on it, I have nothing left to argue, and I don't really know why what I said was picked apart and made into an argument in the first place. Anyway, later.

[Enduronman]

Awareness living instead of reactive living isn't a happy place or something you snap into. It's a complete change in perception of life, and the way you view things.

What an excellent quote Jesse...and 100% true (at least in my own case)...."Change one's own perseption of life"....not "Change life to meet one's own perseptions"...

[Enduronman]

[Quote]Those things aren't going to solve the problem or make someone depressed and anxious feel happier about life necessarily, but it a way to cope and enjoy life again for a little while instead of living in constant fear.[Quote] Gingerbreadelf...

Another excellent quote and also very true. Both of your perspective views are on the exact same page. just worded a tad bit differently. "To cope, deal with, handle, enjoy, life"....

E-Man...:)

[Enduronman]

Hi Danielle!

:)

[Enduronman]

Hi Jesse! :)

[Gingerbreadelf]

Funny how these names keep popping up disagreeing and trying to argue with me kinda reminds me of the stalker cat fisher I have an another forum since I've never til the last week or so been argued with on here. He used to boast that he never had anxiety as if it was something that made him superior, and his attitude was he didn't let his nerves "get to him" bs like that, seems he'd come here claiming to know and understand anxiety when he really has no idea what he was talking about... Anyway, that aside...

I didn't say I have anticipatory anxiety "every minute of the day" I said I deal with it almost daily, meaning it arises at certain times of the day for various reasons.. It comes on while I'm dealing with stress, this can last for 2 months or so and it goes away more or less. And yes I do deal with it thank you (yes you are quite rude and I know that's your intention to be) if I wasn't I'd never leave my house.

I deal as well as anyone can in my circumstance, as do other suffers.

[jessed03]

Gingerbread :confused: we discussed this the other night, remember in your thread where you had a panic attack because your sister moved something in the bathroom.

You thought JLB and Mist were trolls because they didn't understand you. Even though they apologized for upsetting you, but you didn't buy it?

These people were all here before you, how could they be here just to troll you?

Dan is one of the nicest people I know. I dont think for a second she was being intentionally rude.

Someone said to me in a PM that you had a mild personality disorder, is that true?

If so I'm sorry if we debated a little hard. I enjoy talking about this stuff, I never meant to come on strong, I'm just passionate.

Try and relax ok? I don't want you feeling paranoid. If anyone here harasses you, tell me and I'll get them IP banned. I don't think anyone here is out to get you, I want you to feel relaxed here. I didn't mean to make you feel attacked.

[Gingerbreadelf]

One thing that has been mentioned in many anxiety books, videos I've seen is that fear does Not go away, it's going to be there, you can't stop yourself from feeling it, you simply have to accept it's there and know it will be hard at times but just keep going and that is how I personally deal with my anxiety, as do many others. Nothing cures anxiety better than changing your life, doing things you always wanted to do.

If a Anxiety was ever a condition you felt at "peace" with then I'd imagine we'd never feel the urge to make the changes we need to because we'd be content improving nothing.

I once read the secret message of anxiety is "stop we're hurting" it's true that is its message it's there to cause alarm and shake us into action to do the things that need to be done in life.

[jessed03]

Hehe I'm not disagreeing with you, that's what I'm tryna say! I was just trying to help you understand another philosophy.

But by helping you understand another philosophy, I was never saying that yours was wrong.

You have some very extreme issues (fellow OCD sufferer) the way you deal with them interests me. Doubting life's validity as you did the other night sounds extremely hard!

[jessed03]

On another note, remember one of your first threads on here...

You never uploaded your YouTube vids did you. We were all waiting to see them!! :)

[Gingerbreadelf]

[QUOTE=jessed03;145793]Gingerbread :confused: we discussed this the other night, remember in your thread where you had a panic attack because your sister moved something in the bathroom.

You thought JLB and Mist were trolls because they didn't understand you."

Yes I do remember the rude responses I got on that question, which shocked me since I had never experienced that kind of rudeness on here before, "didn't understand me" as in proclaiming my question was absurd basically, because that's not trolling or anything..

"These people were all here before you, how could they be here just to troll you?" Because many looked as if they'd just registered..

"Someone said to me in a PM that you had a personality disorder, is that true?"

Haha, get out of here you troll.

"If so I'm sorry if we debated a little hard. I enjoy talking about this stuff, I never meant to come on strong, I'm just passionate."

Right, passionate about being a troll.

I registered this name in December, I have one other name here I use, but forgot the password at the time. and just around that time, I begin to see suspicious names floating around here. Bad enough you stalk me and ruin yahoo for me, break into my email, and worst of all have come and ruined this place infecting it with your little cluster of troll names "Mist, JLB, Enduroman, Amber something or other"..who knows what else, trying to start crap with me, and no doubt play games with other people's heads here. Well, go ahead and stay here, I'm out, and trying to be as far off from you as possible in the future. Bye.

[jessed03]

You think I'm a troll? People on this forum have seen me, they've seen my face on skype.

I don't know what to say. The names you've mentioned of people you think are trolls and stalkers have over 10,000posts combined. If you think whole forum is trying to troll you, then I don't know what to say.

Try talk to someone about your paranoia maybe? I think it will help you.

No one here is a troll, everyone you ask will tell you the same thing.

[Gingerbreadelf]

Bullshit. :)

[jessed03]

You realize you can check the dates people joined at the corner of the screen. Me: May 2011. Enduronman: 2012. Dan almost a year ago.

These people are regular members, but some are new like Amber etc.

Nobody here is stalking you, I promise. That's your paranoia talking. You have named half the active users of this forum as trolls or stalkers. But that's so silly isn't it. They don't all come here daily, post hundreds of posts, just as an elaborate trick being played on you.

Think about that for a second.

[GeneAllen]

Gingerbreadelf?

You said...So there is the cause of the attacks (her husband) til things resolve themselves, til she walks out on him, or divorces him, anxiety attacks are going to continue to plague her.

I have to disagree with this statement. He is not the problem , or he has her power and that's impossible. In my opinion her thoughts about him are the root of it all. Change her thoughts change her life, don't wait for him to change, own it. I have seen this at work in my life waiting for the world, or some person to change, silly me, when I change my whole world changes. She can just get her shit together and leave his ass, not to be vengeful, but to find someone who respects her like she respects herself. Peace

[NixonRulz]

You realize you can check the dates people joined at the corner of the screen. Me: May 2011. Enduronman: 2012. Dan almost a year ago. These people are regular members, but some are new like Amber etc. Nobody here is trolling you, I promise

Of all the people on this forum, if there were any people any farther from a troll, I would like to see them.

The people regularly here, meaning virtually everyday, would surely have been booted from the site a long time ago, even if they recently joined but posted often. It doesn't take long on here before the real personalities come out.

Maybe the way the thread started was taken out of tone. Hard to see emotion in writing.

I'm not speaking for others but I took it as you felt like your opinion about anxiety was the absolute fact for everyone suffering.

It opened up a little debate and you feel like you are somehow being attacked and then accuse people of harassing you. Again, it doesn't take long for ones rue personality to come out here.

Maybe this is a symptom of your personal anxiety or maybe somehow you really feel like someone or people are bashing you, but if don't we it anywhere on this thread

There is room for more than one opinion on a topic and we openly discuss them, even if we agree to disagree.

Let's do just that.

There is far greater things to I talk about.

[jessed03]

Amen.

I've gotta try and figure out if the 49ers can beat the Panthers in Carolina :confused:

I wanna get some cash on the Panthers, I like them this season

[NixonRulz]

I hate the 49ers and Jim harbaugh. I know his brother is the ravens coach but he is a tool

So I hope they lose.

I think Cam Cameron's superman bullshit is stupid. Hasn't done enough for that yet but I hope they beat Kapernick

Did you bet on the Patriots?

Not sure if I ever told you but my 9 year old loves them.

that's why he lives in the cold outside in the doghouse.

[jessed03]

Where were you born, Seattle? :eek:

Yeah Kaperdick is overrated.

I bet both teams to cover last night, they did, I might as well roll it over onto Broncos and Panthers