Thought patterns

[kelsta]

I've tried n tried but can't seem to change my thoughts.... Can anyone tell me how ??

[jamus75]

Wish I knew the answer. I've been working on it myself. Trying to laugh off the ridiculous fears and get mad at the anxiety. Telling it that it doesn't scare me anymore. I've been able to shut down most of my panic attacks but still dealing with the everyday anxiety and worry.

[NixonRulz]

The reason you can't change your thoughts is that you are giving them way too much credit.

As jamus said, once you stop treating them as reality and look at them as just symptoms, they seem to fade away

Sounds so easy but I know it is hard.

I also know that is possible and that you can and will overcome this

[kelsta]

The reason you can't change your thoughts is that you are giving them way too much credit.

As jamus said, once you stop treating them as reality and look at them as just symptoms, they seem to fade away

Sounds so easy but I know it is hard.

I also know that is possible and that you can and will overcome this

I hope so cause I can't handle much more.. I've tryed telling myself its not going to get me but it's not working for me.

[jessed03]

*LONG POST ALERT*

I love the truths layed out by Nixon and Jamus in this thread :)

You wanna now why you can't change your thoughts???! COS IT'S IMPOSSIBLE - You can't 'control' your mind - Well you can - But not the way you want to.

As I explain it may sound a little 'spiritual', but thats only because it sounds nicer that way. It's firmly rooted at the base of our current psychological treatments, but it doesn't have that poetry about it when described that way.

You don't actually need to make these thoughts go away. In a way, you can't. They must go away on their own. The important this, is to be aware that they are just thoughts. Stressed, confused thoughts. They are weightless in the mind.

Don't try to fight them. Don't try to work them out. You can't cure a tired mind by making it work harder. It needs to rest. To recuperate.

This is a really confusing concept, because people believe they have to be in charge of their thoughts. They don't. They believe they are the thoughts. They aren't. People believe they create the thoughts, or they are responsible for them. They aren't. Only if they engage in them.

Thoughts happen... You don't do them. You are lead to believe you do, but they are still spontaneous. People often say, 'Well I can think about a car, so I look, I control them.'... But where did the thought come from, telling you to think about about a car? You see... It all begins from something popping into your head, without you doing anything to create it. If you wish to, you can at times decide to follow thought patterns already in your mind, or try to gently encourage others to happen. With a little work, you can even learn to focus attention on certain types of thought (positive ones), and although this is useful, and a recommended skill to learn, I'm sure you'll agree, it's still a very superficial level of control.

Our minds are often described as a 'stream of consciousness.' Because like a stream, out thoughts and ideas flow and flow and flow. Fearful, excited, happy, sad... They are all the same thing. They are all just thoughts and ideas. They all weigh the same.

Seeing as they pop into and out of your head at will, you have very little immediate control over what is in there. You can say 'la la la la la' but eventually you'll have to stop.

See, you're not the voice, you're that awareness. The one who realizes you're thinking. Not the one doing the thinking. Most of that is just happening to you.

The way we say 'It's my mind' is very important. It's the same way we say 'My kids' and 'My car'... We say the word 'My', meaning it is something that is ours, that belongs to us, but something that isn't us.

'The thought that made you believe that you were the thinker, was just another thought...'

So - You don't have to control it or make yourself think or feel something. After all - it's really quite impossible. You can live a healthy life, and plant the right seeds, but you can never fully control something that is spontaneous. And that's why it's great. Because you can realize, that thoughts and ideas just go on and on and on and on and on.
They always have done. You can literally just watch them... While you're watching them, you begin to see them happening. On their own. And they go. On their own. You realize they are all created equally. It is only the belief we attach to them which causes reactions.

The reason you feel awful, is because you don't know what to do, about something you can't really do anything about. You feel guilty, sad and hopeless, because every method of controlling this thing, seems to fail.

Changing what you're thinking, is like watching a horror movie. You see the woman going into the room, and you shout 'Don't go in there! Turn around! Stop..' but of course she doesn't listen. It's something separate.
And you know that deep down.
Yet you still have this weird tension telling you that you have to do something. That somehow, if you do something, it will have a result. The same happens with thinking. We believe we've got to change it , and perform all manner of strange actions trying to.
We go through terrible anxiety, and utter torment, when we can't. When what we do doesn't last very long. This tension is often what we mistake for anxiety.

Feelings happen. The way your heart happens to beat. There is no conscious effort behind it. It is a reaction. a process of events taking place. The same way your thoughts and feelings are a process. A process and a reaction to what is happening in your body, and in life. They are happening.

We may spot a thought process we dislike, and therefore quickly try to distract ourselves from it. This has very short term success. It's exhausting to do this long term, but we all know, if we have a terrible thought, we can shout 'Shut up, go away , not listening, lalala' and it momentarily stops. We all know we can engage in a thought process further, and allow it to grow and become more real. But this again is a mere illusion of control. We're mistaking having the TV remote, for being the actor or actress on the show. We can choose the frequency in which we want to listen, we can choose which ones to watch, but we don't get to be the scriptwriter for the mind.

We then, strangely, confuse that illusion of contribution, as us having great power and authority over our thoughts and feelings. We've been doing this our whole live. And this is the source of an incredible amount of frustration and despair.

When they come into your head, don't do anything about them. Watch them. You realize how completely separate they can be from you. How harmless they can be. If you don't control your thoughts, nor your feelings, then you have no need whatsoever to feel any guilt, shame or anxiety over them! When there is so little emotion attached to them, then they stop being so relevant, and they disappear. Right now, your body is completely enthralled in the drama of thinking. It's on the edge of it's seat in anticipation of the next thought, or drama. Why would that ever disappear? Even though you hate it? It's addictive. You watch movies, and TV shows, solely for drama. There is always some degree of conflict, or problem. The world is fascinated by it. Everybody would stop watching if there was no drama involved. The same way these thoughts and feelings fade, when there is no emotion upon feeling them. Suddenly, just like a tv viewer, your awareness stops watching, it is boring. And it's gone.

This is a really peacefully discovery. If you don't start them, and you can't stop them, then what point is there of listening to them? Sure, you can if you want. If it's entertaining. Which, at the moment it is for the body. Anxiety is a horrible, crippling condition, but it entertains the body. It gives it a constant play of drama, and a riddle to solve. But once you realize the whole process of you paying attention to it, is incredibly irrelevant your body stops doing it. Your mind slowly begins to become really really quiet, and calm on it's own.

This is what people call meditation. I hear almost everybody say 'Meditation makes me so relaxed, but after a few hours, it's gone.' Meditation doesn't have to stop. People don't realize you can bring it to your life.

So they are just there, happening away somewhere in your head. The same way your heart is happening to beat, the same way you are happening to breathe. You don't do either of those things, they happen... The same as thought. If they are currently happening, then they are happening. You can watch them, or you can do something else. Seeing as the whole thing doesn't need you there anyway, it doesn't need you to guard it, or watch it, or tell it what to do. You don't really need to be there. You can do something else, like go for a walk, and focus your consciousness on that.

You're the awareness of the thoughts, and of the feelings. Focus on your heartbeat....Notice how it feels very prominent, and real. Well the same happens with thoughts. When you place your awareness in them, they are loud. Like your heartbeat, they stand out, they become incredibly real and lifelike. But when your awareness is elsewhere, suddenly it disappears into the background.

If the problem is the voice in your head, then you can't use the voice in the head to change it. It's like trying to lift yourself up by your ankles. Knives can't cut themselves. Fire can't burn itself. The voice in the head, can't get rid of the voice in the head.

This is something you'll discover. It's really liberating. There's a lot of tension in trying desperately not to do things which are just natural processes. You'll begin to take your awareness, and put it elsewhere. Awareness is never mad, or crazy, or evil, or diseased. It is simply awareness. The thing that every experience can come out of.

So there are two ways you can fix this problem. Both are as useful. You can do it the CBT way, and constantly, again and again focus on a positive thought, or, you can do what I did, you can disregard 99% of thought. Because trust me, it's ALL just useless mental chatter anyway :D

I believe when you have a constant awareness of your mind, and a real understanding of what is happening, and how irrelevant it all is, you'll fix yourself semi-automatically.

A wise man once said; "In the right frame of mind; all good habits are formed effortlessly, and all bad ones fade on their own."

[Nicolette]

wow, really insightful post jessed03. thank you

[NixonRulz]

I had to shave twice by the time I finished this post!

Very long but absolutely 100% spot on

So well said.

The things that worked for you are the exact things that worked for me after 20 years.

This should be it's own sticky note.

If people would read this when they started feeling the symptoms for the first time, they could walk away from here the same day never to return.

Stop fighting people! I fought for 20 years and I can tell you nothing ever changed for the better, it only got worse

Once I stopped and welcomed, acknowledged and accepted my thoughts and pains for what they were, they quickly faded. I can't tell you enough how true it is

I needed someone to tell me this years ago and I may have never had the pleasure of this stupid illness

Turn the page everyone

This chapter of your life can be over

[annastack]

I would recommend reading 'at last a life' by Paul David. I found and still find it very helpful when I find my mind wandering to negative thoughts about 'symptoms' I convince myself are serious x

[jessed03]

I had to shave twice by the time I finished this post!

Haha. Don't you always shave twice? Surely you don't leave one leg hairy? ;)


If people would read this when they started feeling the symptoms for the first time, they could walk away from here the same day never to return.


Such an interesting line. When I read this, I could actually pinpoint the moment things begun going wrong for me. Nobody in my whole life, told me it was ok to ignore my mind if I want. Nobody told me that thoughts can be completely random and harmless. Nobody told me not everything needs resolution and answers. It's perhaps one of the greatest thing a person can be taught about themselves, and I went 20+ years without even a hint of an idea that I was allowed to do it.

I really believe if somebody had told me when I was younger - 'Wow, those thoughts have you pretty gripped. Why don't you stop having an intimate relationship with them, and THEN see how you feel?'... I would have completely avoided most sufferings in my life.

The ways I have worked myself up into a frenzy, and created enemies out of shadows is extraordinary. And it was nothing more than a little bit of a perception problem. Quite sad really.

[Jay1985]

Wow what an amazing read

Thanks

[Armstrong1]

Oh, Jessed, what a brilliant post. i read it over twice so I could be sure i respond in a helpful way for everyone. Just recently someone (probably my therapist) said that all of these disturbing thoughts take place in the very top of our brains. From that area down through our bodies is our whole and healthy self. I've found to my amazement that if I mentally put a little cap or hat or something on ther very top of my head and isolate the icky thoughts within the circumference of the "cap" that I fell instanly better. Still practicing that. This occurs for me mostly in the early AM when I wake up and the toughts start spinning and take on a life of their own. So, I imagine the cap thing on the top of my head and then begin to enjoy how the rest of me feels in my comfortable bed, my beloved cat tucked under my arm and other physical sensations that are nice to feel like the quiet of my room. I've been so caught up in battle with the zoomy awful thoughts for so long. I think I'm on to something good here. I'm really just echoing your post, Jessup, though this is a technique that seems to be working for me. Still trying to come up with a visualization of a really cute cap kind of thing. LOL.

[kelsta]

*LONG POST ALERT*

I love the truths layed out by Nixon and Jamus in this thread :)

You wanna now why you can't change your thoughts???! COS IT'S IMPOSSIBLE - You can't 'control' your mind - You can - But not the way you want to.

I'm gonna explain this, and it may sound a little 'spiritual', but thats only because it sounds nicer. It's firmly rooted at the base of our current psychological treatments.

You don't need to make these thoughts go away. In a way, you can't. They go away on their own. They are just thoughts. Stressed, confused thoughts.

Don't try to fight them. Don't try to work them out. You can't cure a tired mind, by making it work harder. It needs to rest. To recuperate.

This is a really confusing concept, because people believe they have to be in charge of their thoughts. They don't. They believe they are the thoughts. They aren't. They believe they make the thoughts, or are responsible for them. They aren't. Only if they engage in them. Thoughts happen... You don't do them. You are lead to believe you do, but they are still spontanous. People say, 'Well I can think about a car, so I control them.'... Well where did the thought come from, telling you to think about about a car? You see... It all starts from something popping into your head, without you doing anything to create it. If you wish, you can at times decide to follow thought patterns already in your mind, or try to gently encourage others to happen, with a little work, you can even learn to focus attention on certain types of thought (positive ones), and although this is useful, and a recommended skill to learn, I'm sure you'll agree, it's still a very superficial level of influence.

They're like a stream, they flow and flow and flow. Fearful, excited, happy, sad... They are all the same thing. Just thoughts.

Seeing as they pop into, and out of your head at will, you have very little immediate control over what is in there. You can say 'la la la la la' but eventually you'll have to stop.

See, you're that awareness. The one who realizes you're thinking. Not the one doing the thinking. Most of that is just happening to you.

The way we say 'It's my mind' is very important. It's the same way we say 'My kids' and 'My car'... We say the word 'My', meaning it is something that is ours, but something that isn't us.

'The thought that made you believe that you were the thinker, was just another thought...'

You don't have to control it. Or make yourself think or feel something. It's really quite impossible. You can do it momentarily, you can live a healthy life, and plant the right seeds, but you can never fully control something that is spontaneous. And that's why it's great. Because you can realize, that thoughts just go on and on and on and on and on.
They always have done. You can literally just watch them... While you're watching them, you begin to see them happening. On their own. And they go. On their own.

The reason you feel awful, is because you don't know what to do, about something you don't really control. You feel guilty, sad and hopeless, because every method of control this thing, seems to fail.

Changing what you're thinking, is like watching a horror movie. You see the woman going into the room, and you shout 'Don't go in there! Turn around! Stop.. Oh you're so stupid! I can't believe you went in there!' but of course she doesn't listen. It's something seperate.
And you know that deep down.
Yet you still have this weird tension, that you have to do something, that somehow, if you do something, it will have a result. The same with thinking. We believe we've got to change it, or at least control it.
We go through terrible anxiety, and utter torment, when we can't. When what we do doesn't last very long. This tension is often what we mistake for anxiety.

Feelings happen. The way your heart happens to beat. There is no conscious effort behind it. It is a reaction. a process of events taking place. The same way your thoughts and feelings are a process. A process and a reaction to what is happening in your body, and in life. They are happening. .

We can spot a thought process, and dislike it, and therefore quickly try to distract ourselves from it, and this has very short term success. It's exhausting to do this long term, but we all know, if we have a terrible thought, we can shout 'Shut up, go away , not listening, lalala, and it momentarily stops. We all know we can engage in a thought process further, and allow it to grow and become more real. But this is a mere illusion of control. We're mistaking having the TV remote, for being the actor or actress on the show. We can choose the frequency we want to listen, and which ones to watch, but we don't get to be the scriptwriter for the mind.

We then, strangely, confuse that illusion of contribution, as us having great power and authority over our thoughts and feelings. This is the source of an incredible amount of frustration and despair.

When they come into your head, don't do anything about them. Watch them. You realize how completely separate they can be from you. How harmless they can be. If you don't control your thoughts, nor your feelings, then you have no need whatsoever to feel any guilt, shame or anxiety over them! When there is so little emotion attached to them, then they stop being so relevant, and they disappear. Right now, your body is completely enthralled in the drama of thinking. It's on the edge of it's seat in anticipation of the next thought, or drama. Why would that ever disappear? Even though you hate it? It's addictive. You watch movies, and TV shows, soley for drama. There is always some degree of conflict, or problem. The world is fascinated by it. Everybody would stop watching once there was no drama involved. The same way these thoughts and feelings fade, when there is no emotion upon feeling them. Suddenly, just like a tv viewer, your awareness stops watching. And it's gone.

This is a really peacefully discovery. If you don't start them, and you can't stop them, then what point is there of listening to them? Sure, you can if you want. If it's entertaining. Which, at the moment it is for the body. Anxiety is a horrible, crippling condition, but it entertains the body. But once you realize the whole process of you paying attention to it, is incredibly irrelevant your body stops doing it. Your mind slowly begins to become really really quiet, and calm.

This is what people call meditation. I hear almost everybody say 'Meditation makes me so relaxed, but after a few hours, it's gone.' Meditation doesn't have to stop. People don't realize you can bring it to your life.

They are just there, happening away somewhere in your head. The same way your heart is happening to beat, they same way you are happening to breathe. You don't do either of those things, they happen... The same as thought. If they are currently happening, then they are happening. You can watch them, or you can do something else. Seeing as the whole thing doesn't need you there anyway, it doesn't need you to guard it, or watch it, or tell it what to do. You don't really need to be there. You can do something else, like go for a walk, and focus your consciousness on that.

You're the awareness of the thoughts, and of the feelings. Focus on your heartbeat....Notice how it feels very prominent, and real. Well the same happens with thoughts. When you place your awareness in them, they are loud. Like your heartbeat, they stand out, they become incredibly real and lifelike, Whereby when your awareness is elsewhere, suddenly it disappears into the background.

If the problem is the voice in your head, then you can't use the voice in the head to change it. It's like trying to lift yourself up by your ankles. A knife can't cut itself, fire can't burn itself, the voice in the head, can't get rid of the voice in the head.

This is something you'll discover. It's really liberating. There's a lot of tension inside you too. Trying desperately not to do things which are just natural processes. You'll begin to take your awareness, and put it elsewhere. Awareness is never mad, or crazy, or evil, or diseased. It is simply awareness. The thing that every experience can come out of. I think the physical aspect of things, will be immensely helped when your mind becomes more peaceful. When you let go of all this chronic tension.

So there are two ways you can fix this problem. You can do it the CBT way, and constantly, again and again focus on a positive thought, or, you can do what I did, you can disregard 99% of thought. Because trust me, it's ALL just useless mental chatter anyway :D

I believe when you have a constant awareness of your mind, and a real understanding of what is happening, and how irrelevant it all is, you'll fix yourself semi-automatically.

A wise man said; "In the right frame of mind, all good habits are formed effortlessly, and all bad ones fade on their own."

Wow !!! U are so insightful... I love reading what u have to say :-)

[jessed03]

Armstrong1, what an interesting technique :)

You really got lucky regarding your Psych and your Therapist. It sounds like they both really have a good knowledge of what they are dealing with, and an interest in patient care, and consideration. It really helps, doesnt it!