Fear of Suicide, Not suicidal.

[Marlow]

I started on zoloft about 6-7 weeks ago and it has been working as far as social phobia and depression but still dont feel quite like myself.

Before taking zoloft I did what the normal anxiety ridden person does, google side effects and possible negative feedback to fuel my worries. of coarse suicidal thoughts was on the list.

So I started taking the medication which gave me strange dreams and DP that made me feel terrible at first. I started feeling like it wasnt working and felt down about it. Then I started thinking about the side effect of suicidal thoughts and started thinking I had them. I became afraid to sit by out gun cabinet thinking I might just get up and load a gun and shoot myself (even though I didnt want to).

When I would think about going to eat a chewy bar I would get anxious and think it was a barrel of a gun (similar shapes) and it would get me thinking about it again. Well it has lessed but today I went to caribou and got a tea (coffee gets me anxious) with a friend and when I got home started fearing the gun cabinet again. Im affraid these intrusive thoughts will make me do something I dont want to do.

I have similar fears when deer hunting, thinking how easy it would be to just turn the gun on myself and I start hyperventilating and almost have to unload my riffle. I know I dont want to act on these thoughts but just seeing If people have the same fears or irrational thoughts.

Marlow

[jessed03]

Hey,

I feel really awful for you. Around a year ago, I was diagnosed with the same thing, it was awful, my family would watch crime dramas and I'd be terrified to watch them incase the show aroused me, or gave me ideas. I couldn't cook with anybody in the kitchen for the fear of impulsively stabbing somebody. I couldn't cuddle my partner, as it seemed too easy to strangle her, and the list just goes on.

I was put on Prozac, which made the thoughts so frequent, that I was seriously now convinced I was evil, or just couldn't be trusted, and tried to get myself commited. Thankfully the psychiatrist on call in my local hospital that night saw I didn't fit the description of "Person given up totally on life" or "Homicidal potential" and explained to me the details of intrusive thoughts, and how they worked. My mother was there with me that night, and the look on her face as the psychiatrist repeated what I'd said as he explained things to her was a look I'll never forget.

Skip forwards a few months, and I started Remeron, which did seem to help things a little. I also read A LOT of stuff on intrusive thoughts, and found they had possible links to OCD. Have you had any obsessions, compulsions, rituals that have played a big part in your life? It can often be a symptom of OCD, but nonetheless the treatments are the same.

I spent around 5 months in therapy, dissecting these thoughts, and what they meant, the meanings I gave them, and the underlying fears behind them. This was very useful, and it's crucial to get in some therapy, as it will start to help untangle these thought processes.

Apparently, everybody has these thoughts. I'm sure you and everybody else remembers looking over a steep edge and thinking "what if I jumped? what would it be like?could I do it?" but then dismissed it within seconds and carried on with your day. The problem with people like us, is that we have these relatively normal albeit bizzare thoughts, but our anxiety (being anxiety) causes alarm bells to go off. The same way a hypochondriac gets terrified when they may get an innocent cough, we have these same fears when we have a bizzare thought. Seeing as our mind has now flagged this experience, it's kept constantly in the forefront of our mind, in a desperate attempt to ensure the situation is "resolved" and enough evidence and reassurance to put the thought to rest.

I won't lie to you, it is a tough time. The mind feels alien, the feelings of being evil, or bad, or having this crazy alter ego hiding beneath you, ready to strike any moment it gets the chance, will feel so strong, and so real. It takes time, and effort to get better, and get over this. It will feel some days like all is lost, but it's simply the feeling of a truly exhausted mind, that needs proper help and rest. It takes a lot of time to untangle these thoughts, and the deeper fears behind them which cause it. A good therapist will help you with this. They will make you so de-sensitized by these thoughts, that when they pop into your head, they will instantaneously bore you, and you'll choose simply to laugh them off, or focus on something more interesting. It took me around 5 months, before I saw things clearly for what they were, this deceiving trick being played by my tired mind. You'll get there too, it's very early for you, they may evaporate completely or they may stick around, but you're in soon, they haven't had a chance to build roots and get even more tangled up, and without meaning to sound like I'm be-littling your problem, they are very minor in regards to what other people who have gotten much better have had to face.

And as for acting upon these? No chance my friend. there are rock solid defense mechanisms in the brain which protect you from this (if you ever have an actual strong desire for suicide, see your doctor, or emergency services, as it's a different problem entirely). Evolutionary mechanisms to ensure things like this don't happen. In fact, seeing as they scare you so much, your body is so on guard for these problems, theres actually less chance of you engaging in something like this, than most random people we meet.

Theres a website called stuckinadoorway. Google it, it's excellent, it talks in far more detail about intrusive thoughts, it's a site for OCD, but touches on intrusive thoughts. I've found it to be very helpful. Secondly, did all of this start after taking the Zoloft? If so, I would definetly reccommend switching over meds. There are so many to try that if you get bad side effects from one, give another ago. Unfortunately some drugs can make people feel worse, and it takes a little trial and error before finding the right dose/med.

Anyway, my heart goes out to you, I know how awful it can be at times, but there really is hope, it gets a lot better, a good therapist will help you so much. Theres no shame or weakness though, if you decide to take things a little easier, maybe avoid hunting if you want, or any situations that evoke these thoughts, just to save you the worry until you've got more of a grip on them, which you'll get. Even as I write this, the remains of my own thoughts are still there, I have a bizzare thought of hitting somebody with my laptop, but I now simply laugh it off in a second and forget it, before I carry on my online shopping and spending quality time with my family! Not bad for somebody that tried to get INTO the "madhouse" :)
God Bless, and sorry for the long post!

[nervousbutterflies]

the Zoloft made me worry about suicide too! Every time i try a new medication i research the side effects which i should not because i end up having all of them. When the Zoloft made me so sick i would just lay in the bathroom throwing up and just scared i was never going to get better and scared that i am meant to kill myself. Its really scary! i would never kill myself ever because i believe its selfish and i would not do that to my loved ones. But i do get scared i am going to subconsciously kill myself if that makes any sense. Like i would not be able to control myself from the medicine :(

[Marlow]

yea, nervousbutterflies i know what you mean by subconsciously doing it or just plain lose control and do it without wanting too. And as far as the OCD jessed, I have never noticed any rituals, sometimes i will not step on cracks or try to stride in a way that I dont but thats more of a boredom thing not a nervous thing. I get nervious and obsessive about certain things, for example, when I was a kid I was terrified that a robber was going to come into my room and kill me for no reason but that also passed.

The obsessive thoughts can bug the crap out of me but often dont consume me and lead me toward compulsion but sometimes when I type in a symptom OCD comes up so maybe I do have a little OCD tendencies but I dont think I am OCD. I find myself fear Bi-polar disorder or schizophrenia, Losing my mind in general.

[AmyC]

Hey,

I feel really awful for you. Around a year ago, I was diagnosed with the same thing, it was awful, my family would watch crime dramas and I'd be terrified to watch them incase the show aroused me, or gave me ideas. I couldn't cook with anybody in the kitchen for the fear of impulsively stabbing somebody. I couldn't cuddle my partner, as it seemed too easy to strangle her, and the list just goes on.

I was put on Prozac, which made the thoughts so frequent, that I was seriously now convinced I was evil, or just couldn't be trusted, and tried to get myself commited. Thankfully the psychiatrist on call in my local hospital that night saw I didn't fit the description of "Person given up totally on life" or "Homicidal potential" and explained to me the details of intrusive thoughts, and how they worked. My mother was there with me that night, and the look on her face as the psychiatrist repeated what I'd said as he explained things to her was a look I'll never forget.

Skip forwards a few months, and I started Remeron, which did seem to help things a little. I also read A LOT of stuff on intrusive thoughts, and found they had possible links to OCD. Have you had any obsessions, compulsions, rituals that have played a big part in your life? It can often be a symptom of OCD, but nonetheless the treatments are the same.

I spent around 5 months in therapy, dissecting these thoughts, and what they meant, the meanings I gave them, and the underlying fears behind them. This was very useful, and it's crucial to get in some therapy, as it will start to help untangle these thought processes.

Apparently, everybody has these thoughts. I'm sure you and everybody else remembers looking over a steep edge and thinking "what if I jumped? what would it be like?could I do it?" but then dismissed it within seconds and carried on with your day. The problem with people like us, is that we have these relatively normal albeit bizzare thoughts, but our anxiety (being anxiety) causes alarm bells to go off. The same way a hypochondriac gets terrified when they may get an innocent cough, we have these same fears when we have a bizzare thought. Seeing as our mind has now flagged this experience, it's kept constantly in the forefront of our mind, in a desperate attempt to ensure the situation is "resolved" and enough evidence and reassurance to put the thought to rest.

I won't lie to you, it is a tough time. The mind feels alien, the feelings of being evil, or bad, or having this crazy alter ego hiding beneath you, ready to strike any moment it gets the chance, will feel so strong, and so real. It takes time, and effort to get better, and get over this. It will feel some days like all is lost, but it's simply the feeling of a truly exhausted mind, that needs proper help and rest. It takes a lot of time to untangle these thoughts, and the deeper fears behind them which cause it. A good therapist will help you with this. They will make you so de-sensitized by these thoughts, that when they pop into your head, they will instantaneously bore you, and you'll choose simply to laugh them off, or focus on something more interesting. It took me around 5 months, before I saw things clearly for what they were, this deceiving trick being played by my tired mind. You'll get there too, it's very early for you, they may evaporate completely or they may stick around, but you're in soon, they haven't had a chance to build roots and get even more tangled up, and without meaning to sound like I'm be-littling your problem, they are very minor in regards to what other people who have gotten much better have had to face.

And as for acting upon these? No chance my friend. there are rock solid defense mechanisms in the brain which protect you from this (if you ever have an actual strong desire for suicide, see your doctor, or emergency services, as it's a different problem entirely). Evolutionary mechanisms to ensure things like this don't happen. In fact, seeing as they scare you so much, your body is so on guard for these problems, theres actually less chance of you engaging in something like this, than most random people we meet.

Theres a website called stuckinadoorway. Google it, it's excellent, it talks in far more detail about intrusive thoughts, it's a site for OCD, but touches on intrusive thoughts. I've found it to be very helpful. Secondly, did all of this start after taking the Zoloft? If so, I would definetly reccommend switching over meds. There are so many to try that if you get bad side effects from one, give another ago. Unfortunately some drugs can make people feel worse, and it takes a little trial and error before finding the right dose/med.

Anyway, my heart goes out to you, I know how awful it can be at times, but there really is hope, it gets a lot better, a good therapist will help you so much. Theres no shame or weakness though, if you decide to take things a little easier, maybe avoid hunting if you want, or any situations that evoke these thoughts, just to save you the worry until you've got more of a grip on them, which you'll get. Even as I write this, the remains of my own thoughts are still there, I have a bizzare thought of hitting somebody with my laptop, but I now simply laugh it off in a second and forget it, before I carry on my online shopping and spending quality time with my family! Not bad for somebody that tried to get INTO the "madhouse" :)
God Bless, and sorry for the long post!


That was seriously like reading my own story. I feel this EVERY DAY! And it's comforting to also read that the chances of actually acting upon it are slim to none. Although I'm still scared. My thoughts are horrifying. I think of killing my daughter. It literally makes me ill. I cry and cry. I've also had the impulsive thoughts of just sucker punching some random person for no reason at all.. sometimes it feels like I could black out and actually do it. Scares me to death. I've also had to get rid of guns in my house. I can't look at anything that even resembles a weapon without having it turn to some sinister thought. I need help! Sorry to hijack the thread.

[jessed03]

That was seriously like reading my own story. I feel this EVERY DAY! And it's comforting to also read that the chances of actually acting upon it are slim to none. Although I'm still scared. My thoughts are horrifying. I think of killing my daughter. It literally makes me ill. I cry and cry. I've also had the impulsive thoughts of just sucker punching some random person for no reason at all.. sometimes it feels like I could black out and actually do it. Scares me to death. I've also had to get rid of guns in my house. I can't look at anything that even resembles a weapon without having it turn to some sinister thought. I need help! Sorry to hijack the thread.

I'm really sad to hear that. The posts from people upset me so much, as I know how heart wrenching it feels to be there. I think for me it was comforting to know I wasn't alone, or psycho, or evil. It really feels so isolating, I remember I was in a holder session for group psychotherapy, and there are people with far more serious ailments like schizophrenia, and bipolar looking at me in a state of shock when I explained my problems, it was a very bizarre feeling. It's a very misunderstood affliction, that so few people talk publicly about, for reasons that are pretty obvious I guess.

It is a lonely problem, that leads to so many awful feelings, especially when you watch the news and hear of a murder, or homicide, and this eerie feeling sort of occurs, is that me next? Do I end up on the front page of some newspaper after 'flipping' out?

I also sympathize with how ill it makes you feel, night after night I would lie in bed, shaking, and vomiting sort of in a state of sheer terror and shame. I'd run away from people, lock myself in my room, anything to get away from it.

I don't think it's a thread hi-jack, I'm sure Marlow will be glad for the advice and sympathies everybody provides :)

Feel free to PM me if you need to talk, I have a lot of experiences dealing with this, good and bad, I've found various things that have helped, others that haven't.

I remember reading a story in a newspaper, about a pilot for Quantas airways, who had these thoughts for 20 years, he would constantly have the thought, and urge to switch off the planes engines mid-air, causing a certain death to all 200 on board. He said it was so strong, that he had to sit on his hands for fear of doing it. After over 20 year of flying, and 8 hours at a time in the cockpit, he never once flicked a simple switch. He later went on to seek proper treatment. The chances of you acting on this are just non-existant! But of course it isn't that simple to just switch off (if you'll pardon my pun)

*big hug*

[jessed03]

Yeah, you don't sound very OCD. Intrusive thoughts are still very prominent in anxiety, so I'm sure it just links through that. Funnily enough I was the exact same, I lived in a block of flats, and every noise I heard I was scared was a burglar :).

How are things settling on the Zoloft? Most doctors agree that SSRI's are the best choice for dealing with such things. But sometimes they can just be too over activating, I guess you'll be able to tell after about 10 weeks if you are better on them than before, but there are just so many to try, some people enjoy AD's with a slight sedative affect, as it kind of gives their mind some time to relax and slow down, which is so hard to experience in the face of anxiety.

[Mtowns]

This is amazing everyone above has my exact same symptoms. Fear of doing something to yourself or to someone else, even someone close to you. It's almost like you compell yourself to think these things then anxiety/depression because of the thoughts quickly follows. For me if its even one or two thoughts it can take me couple of hours to get over it, during witch time I am irrated and anxious. Sometimes the thoughts might repeat many times over the course of a day and can qucikly turn my day into crap. Over the last 8-9 weeks I have learned to sort of just let these thoughts come into my mind and then try to quickly dismiss them as my doctor tells they are normal obsessions and your not crazy, but it is still difficult to just dismiss them as internally they horrify me. I have been on Celexa 20mg for about 8 weeks just recently increased to 30mg. I think the meds and a combination of me coming to terms with this part of my mind is helping. The frequency of the thoughts are becoming less and less, but never completey go away and sometimes pops up out of no where for no real reason. I have proven to myslef that I can survive being at level 9 to 10 anxiety on a 4 hour flight couped up on a plane. It sucks and I was completey wiped out at the end of th flight, but I know it won't kill me and I know I wont act on the thoughts, but they still suck bad! Bottom line is you guys are not alone: positive thoughts, rationalizing the negative thoughts and meds help, but wont happen over night. Stats say that complete remision is likely for at least 80% of patients with moderate to sever anxiety/depression possibly in 3-6months. The other 20% may have to try different meds and different dosage levels, but can learn to cope with the condition and lead productive lives without being comsumed by hopelessnes. Imagining the future helps rather than dwelling on your mental turmoil now. Just takes time.

[jessed03]

TO Mtowns...: Glad you're finding relief. Love that part where you talked about the flight, and experiencing unbearable anxiety, yet getting through it, and using it in future to in essence talk down a panic attack. I feel I shared a similar experience, being at a 10, assuming certain death was moments away, and getting through it somehow, and using it as evidence that if I got through that event, this one should be no different. I also agree with the imagination of a future, I think daily positive visualizations of better times, seemed to help shape my mind slowly into accepting a different reality.

TO ALL: The solution to the problem, isn't as simple as it seems. People want to think this, in an ironic way. It's crucial to feel on guard 24/7, due to the severity of the thoughts, the amount of them, and the perceived threat of acting on them. If it means feeling extra stress to be certain of not committing an atrocity, so be it for many people, a price worth paying in their eyes.

I think most people find their cure when they lose the compulsion to experience certainty. Some people hide dangerous objects, avoid loved ones, compare themselves to evil people to find differences, simply because in that moment they feel that certainty. The "Ok, now it can't possibly happen" feeling. But sadly that feeling becomes an addiction almost, craving that sense of security again and again. The real cure starts to happen, when instead of dismissing it constantly, and fighting it, people become used to it. And by used to it, I mean not to the worry, stress, anxiety, and experience, but to the thought. For me, acceptance came when my Therapist told me these thoughts of all types, were created deep in my subconscious mind, where all types of weird and wonderful thoughts are created. They had no place in the conscious mind. They may as well be in two different galaxies they are so far apart. Yet all within the space of your head (the amazing depth of the mind huh!). In fact, it isn't possible for you to act on them, as they never enter the section of your brain, which decides logical function. They may appear to be a part of it, but they are simply an echo from something a world apart, and it is merely your logical brain asking "Did you hear something?". When I found this out, they started to bore me. They seemed much like a Boxer who has talked up an amazing fight, but who when gets into the ring is flat, dull, and lifeless. When you simply realise as Forwells said, they are a product of a tired, and frustrated mind, with absolutely no roots or connections into the real world, it's almost as if they step back from a magnifying glass and reveal a small, loud mouthed, but powerless character, just desperate and loving the attention.

For some, the revelation about the gulf in realities between the two parts of the mind is enough for them to grow tired of these thoughts, others need to become far more de-sesitized to them, breaking them down until all dark corners have been revealed, until all possibilities and connotations have been discussed and analyzed. Either way, as has been said above, most people DO enter remission, and all that receive the required help, experience some relief from symptoms. It takes time though, some people can outgrow it quickly, others it takes them much longer. It happens to us because we are all caring sensitive people, remember that. If we enjoyed murder, it wouldn't be anxiety we were feeling when we thought about it, the same way it isn't anxiety I fee when kissing an attractive female :)

A quote that I loved, that helped me get through was a Zen quote: "To give your sheep or cow a large, spacious meadow is the way to control him" - That if you put something in a cage, it will rebel, and persist, if you allow an animal to roam in a large field, they soon get tired, and bored, and end up sitting together in a tiny space in the middle of the field. The mind is the same, try to fight everything and rebel, and it will pursuit until resolution. Allow it to get it's wildest fantasies out of the way, and soon it will get bored, and fall into line :)

[jessed03]

I agree totally Forwells, in fact, i will rephrase that entirely. The solution is simple. It just doesn't look simple.

It can appear from that dark corner of the world as an all encompassing black hole. Once you can change your attitude towards it, the structures cave in, as many recovers will say.

Which brings me to add, meditation has been hugely helpful to me, and many others on this forum, to be able to detach, and see things from a little further back can be such a help, as well as letting your mind get some rest! A lovely quote I read about meditation was from a certain sportsman who said when asked about his practice said "And after a while I learnt how to ignore myself - and what a relief that was!" lol :)

[ashdude]

yea, nervousbutterflies i know what you mean by subconsciously doing it or just plain lose control and do it without wanting too. And as far as the OCD jessed, I have never noticed any rituals, sometimes i will not step on cracks or try to stride in a way that I dont but thats more of a boredom thing not a nervous thing. I get nervious and obsessive about certain things, for example, when I was a kid I was terrified that a robber was going to come into my room and kill me for no reason but that also passed.

The obsessive thoughts can bug the crap out of me but often dont consume me and lead me toward compulsion but sometimes when I type in a symptom OCD comes up so maybe I do have a little OCD tendencies but I dont think I am OCD. I find myself fear Bi-polar disorder or schizophrenia, Losing my mind in general.

Hey there I get these thoughts too all the time but the reason I am quoting this post is because of what you said about OCD, I know OCD is normally characterised by physical rituals and routines but when it comes to anxiety disorder I find the obsessive part of what we do is think over and over about a problem and our compulsions are the way we tackle these thoughts in our heads, reassuring ourselves for example is a basic reaction to our obsessive and worrying thoughts etc. :)