Wondering if I should persue looking into this....

[JustTess]

I have had a panic disorder for about 10 years. It started when I quit my job, had my 2nd child, and then learned I was getting a divorce all in the same year.

Currently, my anxiety and panic attacks are very manageable and I do not get very upset about it. I know it will last 10 minutes, I look for triggers, and I have an awsome dog that will sit next to me whenever the I'm having an attack.

Anyway, I'm noticing other issues I have OCD? ADD? both? If I am ADD, I've learned to cope with it most of my life. I do have difficulty with vocabulary and speaking when stress is high. I also constantly pull at my hair. My hair is shorter on one side because of it and it is very obvious to co-workers.

I mentioned it to my psyc and he doubled my effexor dosage to 150. It's not doing anything about hair pulling. I also mentioned ADD. He says possibly, however, since it is not causing me to loose my job at the moment I probably don't need to be treated.

I'm wondering if I did seek treatment... would my life be different? I'm not depressed, however, I'm not exactly getting anywhere socially or relationship wise. I know I avoid it.

[square]

I think alot of anxiety comes with ADD.

Or ADD causes a certain amount of anxiety.

They are somehow related, for me anyway. I did the hair thing also.

I think it's worth looking at.

[Giz]

As a matter of interest, hows your diet?

Obviously your life events have shaped your reality now, and I do think counseling would be very helpful.. In fact, probably a lot more helpful than the drugs.. Seeing as Effexor is an SNRI classed anti depressant, Selective Seratonin & Noradrenaline Reuptake Inhibitor. Just so you know what they are; noradrenaline is the bodies antidote to adrenaline, released when we are stressed and seratonin is believed to be involved in relaxation and happiness.

When a nerve impulse reaches a gap between two nerves it needs a neurotransmitter to pass the message on (nerve impulses being electric the gap-the "synapse", is filled with fluid-not a good conductor, thats what neurotransmitters are for) when the message is passed, an enzyme comes along and recycles the neurotransmitter..
Noone has been able to give me a proper answer on how they work, but going on the name you can only assume that they stop the enzyme doing its job so that theres more neurotransmitter left in the synapse..
Problem with that is, if there is now this left over neurotransmitter in the synapse, are the nerve endings not encouraged to manufacture less? I mean, thats how the body works.. So by taking these reuptake inhibitors were interfering with synaptic transmission-and theres still no overwhelming and independent proof that they work on half the things they are prescribed for!!

If your problem was because of something that happened to you, then where is the evidence that you need these chemicals that, lets face it, are interfering with your body's neurological function?
If you are low on seratonin then you should look into making sure that you combine complex carbohydrates with protein in your meals, as well as increasing your B vitamin intake, as these are the ingredients your body needs to manufacture seratonin.
If your noradrenaline is low then it could be related to adrenal exhaustion, which is strongly related to over consumption of refined foods and stimulants. Also, deep breathing encourages the body to release noradrenaline-as if you look at the stress "fight or flight" response, you will notice that adrenaline is released to redirect blood supplies to allow for "fight or flight", once we have fought or flown, we would naturally be inclined to breathe deep-which brings the nervous system back into its relaxed state-by releasing noradrenaline.
Adaptogenic herbs such as Rhodiola and Ginseng are useful in this instance-but ONLY if adrenal imbalance is actually a factor to be concerned about.

That however-is a big "if".. Have you had any sort of blood test, neurotransmitter screening tests or anything else to indicate that you actually need the drugs?

You sound like you have had every reason to be stressed, and perhaps some TLC is in order.. I would highly advise speaking to someone about it, perhaps looking into Cognitive Behaviour Therapy or Yoga & meditation.. But having been through the drug route and suffered the side effects (on effexor funnily enough) I would be inclined to urge you-based on your description here, to seek a less chemically oriented way of dealing with your problem.

Perhaps take a look at Northstars post on natural tips.. It is very informative, and if you find that undertaking the advice in that post that you are feeling better-then ditch the drugs.. The food is much better..

And another thing, dont be so quick to label yourself, ADD is strongly linked to additives in our foods and sugar/refined food intake.. OCD is really a matter of perspective (and can also be to do with some nutritional factors).. Its time you showed yourself some love instead of finding faults with yourself.. If someone else had come to you with all the things that you have been through Im sure you would show them more compassion than you are giving yourself-so treat yourself as you would that other person!!
And please accept this (((HUG))) from me..

I wish you the best of luck, and by the way, your dog really does sound awesome!

Feel free to pm me if you have any questions :)

[Robbed]

If you are low on seratonin then you should look into making sure that you combine complex carbohydrates with protein in your meals, as well as increasing your B vitamin intake, as these are the ingredients your body needs to manufacture seratonin.

There is a fundamental problem with this thinking, though. In MANY ways, it is not too different from the way 'big pharma' looks at problems like depression and anxiety. Specifically, it feeds the belief that the fundamental problem with depression and anxiety is ow serotonin levels. And there is just no proof that this is true. After all, serotonin levels are sometime too HIGH in sufferers of depression/anxiety. It is probably more likely that altered serotonin levels are simply a RESULT of a high-stress state rather than a cause. After all, if low serotonin was a cause, then SSRIs would not be the crappy drugs that they are. Now I'm not saying that you SHOULDN'T give your body what it needs in terms of nutrients. But I wouldnt rely on JUST this in order to recover. Remember that cognitive factors are probably the number one cause of anxiety (ie quitting a job, having a second child, and getting a divorce all within a year's time). So this is something that CANNOT be ignored.

As for OCD, obsessive thoughts are actually a VERY common anxiety symptom. This does not mean that you have an entirely separate condition in addition to your anxiety disorder. Rather, it is just a natural part of anxiety disorder that most people with anxiety experience. As for ADD, I don't think this is the result of anxiety disorder. Keep in mind, though, that anxiety disorder DOES have a negative effect on one's ability to focus and concentrate. However, this is not the same thing as ADD, and should not be confused for ADD.

[Giz]

Dont worry Robbed-I had kinda got at that point already... Without the tests-wheres the proof any of this is the cause at all :)

Although better access to vitamins & minerals(and better food full stop!) is of benefit to us all, talking to someone and "getting it off our chest" is still one of the most important things we all need to do for our sanity!

And I think I did mention yoga, meditation, and CBT.. (Or was that another thread? Sorry if it was, the thing displaying past messages wont work on my computer today for some reason...)

[joey9]

My understanding of SSRIs is, as Giz explains, that they do exactly as the name says. They inhibit the reuptake of serotonin so that it is kept available in the synapses for longer. However, as Giz also alludes to, the brain works on a thermostat system. When it notices that 'more' serotonin is in the synapses it cuts it own production, hence the effects you can get when you first start taking them - increased anxiety/depression etc. for up to 3 weeks. And after all that and your body adjusts, you still aren't actually producing any more serotonin, so you're going to have to go through the whole withdrawal thing when you finally come down enough to think that you don't need them anymore.

But you can produce MORE serotonin naturally in a number of ways that will create the same good effects without any of the side effects or withdrawal. Is this really a problem? The whole problem with 'Big Pharma' is that profiteering through the over selling of synthetic substances for any old complaint can lead to all sorts of misery in terms of dependence, side effects and withdrawal syndromes. However, if you can make yourself look at the world in an entirely different way, completely naturally, with absolutely no ill effects, is that really so bad?

There is no simple cure for anxiety disorders, and that's because there is no simple cause of anxiety disorders. ALL anxiety disorders have a biological basis - we are, as someone once posted on here said, one big chemical factory. For example, the hardware can be laid down before we are even born. if you happen to be wired in a way that predisposes you to be hyper fearful of things, you are going to find it unfortunately easy to be conditioned to fear things throughout your life. Once you have collected these fears, they can be very hard to extinguish, as your body's chemical factory goes about it's business every time it is stimulated. A very silly example I know but: I am afraid of spiders. Once, about 20 years ago when I was a child, i opened the cupboard under the sink and there was a huge black spider sitting in front of me. The spider did absolutely nothing to me but, being an arachnophobe, frightened the living daylights out of me. Now, 20 years later, I must have opened the door to the cupboard under the sink at least once a day, at my old home and in new houses. Each time I open the door I feel a flurry of fear that there will be a spider there. I have never seen a spider there since. You would think that I would be over that by now, but this is the same for all my fears - once they are there they seem very difficult to get rid of.

Not only can you be born hyper sensitive to 'fear', but as we see over and over on this forum, all sorts of physiological factors can cause our fear centres to be upset. Inadequate nutrition, hormonal imbalance, ear infections etc. etc. If you go through a period of anxiety, whatever the cause, you become hyper sensitive to fearful stimuli. So you can build up all sorts of conditioned fears that hang around once the initial physiological problem is remedied. And of course horrible things can happen to us that cause us huge amounts of stress that can also upset the balance. And of course we can learn to fear things because we are made to be afraid of them by others over a period of time.

Anxiety is not just about learning, nor is it just about biochemistry. But its pretty hard to try to decondition yourself to whatever fears you have or to try to calm yourself down when you're in the middle of some episode of irrational or obsessive thinking. If something is going on that has sent our serotonin systems into a spin then there is no harm in trying to find a natural way to boost your serotonin whilst you try to calm down. If you can nip it in the bud then maybe you make it less easy for the anxiety to leave scars. And of course, trying to find the ultimate cause is imperative.

I have always been prone to worry and sensitive to fearful situations. But it was nothing that I would call a huge problem until my hormones got involved. Now I know that this is a major cause of all my full on anxiety issues I get an interesting perspective on my thought processes. I have now found a balance for my hormones and discovered the wonder of 5-HTP, but before then, for a set number of predictable days each month, my mind would take on a life of its own. I could be utterly terrified about something that the previous week I had thought was absolutely fine. And this would happen month in, month out - everythings fine followed by doom and terror. Trying to apply CBT techniques at the height of the terror was a near impossibility. Yet applying them when all was fine was quite easy. The problem is still that I have been left with the jitters about certain fears I had when I was in the full throws of it - I'm still not 100% sure what I was right to fear and what was crazy but I'm getting there.

Anyway, I guess my point after all that is this: Everyone who suffers anxiety has to make their own unique journey through it. It could be caused by all sorts of things, and only you can know the triggers that send you over to the 'dark side'. I never wanted to take prescription medicines because I hated the idea of dependence and side effects. But i did, and still do, take natural supplements which helped me no end and without which I would still probably be in quite a horrible place. But i also know the triggers - both physical and cognitive - that can set me off, and i am still working hard to try to neutralise these so that I can fend off future attacks. I think if you have suffered from any kind of severe anxiety, whatever the cause, the cure is always going to have to be very holistic in nature.

[Robbed]

Dont worry Robbed-I had kinda got at that point already... Without the tests-wheres the proof any of this is the cause at all :)

And you know what? There AREN'T any tests for this! A simple blood test would simply reval the serotonin concentation in the blood. This is an entirely separate pool from that in the CNS, which is separated by the blood-brain barrier. You could in theory take a spinal tap, and find out how much 5-HIAA (the serotonin metabolite) is in the CSF. But the problem here is that you are just looking at general amounts of it. It is possible that levels could be normal, yet serotonin levels could be high in places, and low in other places. This is THE reason why the serotonin hypothesis is so flawed: it is pretty much impossible to prove. Now I'm not sure if any kind of brain scan may be able to reveal local serotoneric activity. But even if there is, you can be damn sure that your local hospital is not going to do this for your average depression/anxiety sufferer.

[Giz]

Hey-most docs over here dont run any tests of any sort..
Just put you on the drugs and leave you at it.. Perhaps get you into therapy-if you show yourslef to be a high risk, if not, you will be waiting over a year to speak to anyone..

If you ask me thats kinda backward-esp when you bear in mind that a lot of the meds can increase suicidal ideations...
But anyway-were in danger of hijacking here arent we.. Ill shut up now!!

[JustTess]

Wow... thank you all for your response. I have to take some time to digest these thoughts.

Giz - My husky is awsome. When I first adopted him, I thought I was going to have panic attacks again then he turned out to be a real blessing. I can hide my attacks from my children, but my husky can pick it up and just runs to be underfoot. What's even wierder is that he himself has separation anxiety and occassionally needs meds so he won't hurt himself. We've almost have his anxiety cured through an extinction process.


I'm thinking I'll try to start with changing diet for now. I have had a horrible addiction to refined sugar a few years ago. What diet is ideal?


Stress at home has been a little high with my teen son. We are working on it though. He was recently diagnosed last year with ADHD and looking into OCD... He also has a high IQ so, dx has been extremely fustrating. I know the more stress is toxic to me so I'm trying to balance everything.

[Robbed]

Hey-most docs over here dont run any tests of any sort..
Just put you on the drugs and leave you at it.

Exactly. When I first saw a doctor about my anxiety problems, he almost seemed to get excited about having someone else to put on Lexapro.

[hannah]

hehe, i did the hair thing to, almost had a bald patch in the center of my head, now i try and break instead off pull it out lol,
look it up on the internet its really interesting why we do it :shock:

[Giz]

Hey Tess,
Theres no particular "diet" as such.. Just eating well..
Here is a copy from a website, as I cant get the link working that puts it quite well(even if the are talking about cancer a lot!!;



Guideline 1

Consume at least seven portions of fresh fruit and vegetables (which equates to roughly 400 to 600 g) a day, every day. This recommendation derives from guidelines to consumers developed by the United States National Cancer Institute and American Institute for Cancer Research which stipulate five to nine servings per day.

Focus on selecting diverse types of fruit and vegetables—don’t always have the same types. Diversity is very important to ensure you get a good mix of different types of nutrients. Broccoli is an extremely healthy vegetable, but don’t only eat broccoli every day, to the exclusion of other vegetables.

Focus on mixing lots of different colours too: dark greens, oranges, reds, light greens, yellows, and so on. These natural colours are actually comprised of different nutrients, many of which have cancer protective properties. Red foods contain lycopene (a carotenoid), which is associated with a reduction in cancer risk, especially prostate cancer. Yellow and orange foods also contain different blends of powerful natural carotenoids, a group of some 400-500 naturally-occurring substances with cancer-fighting properties. Green foods like broccoli, kale and Brussels sprouts contain glucosinolates, which are associated with decreased cancer risk. White-green foods, such as garlic and onions, contain allyl sulphides that also appear to be important to your anticancer armoury.

Eat home-prepared food as often as you can and don’t overcook or over-steam your vegetables and certainly don’t microwave them. This type of cooking breaks down a lot of the enzymes and other nutrients. It also damages the ‘life energy’ within the food.

Guideline 2

Consume complex, rather than simple, carbohydrates. Use a Glycaemic Index (GI) or better still, a Glycaemic Load (GL) chart and select moderate to low glycaemic ‘carbs’ whenever you can. Don’t consume white bread, go for whole grain and seed breads. Once grains are refined, they’ve lost up to 80% of their vitamin and mineral content.

Guideline 3

Take your protein from lean meats, fish, nuts, seeds and vegetables, such as peas, beans and non-GMO/organic fermented soya products (e.g. tofu, tempeh), depending on your preferences. Tofu and tempeh, consumed in large quantities by the Japanese and South-East Asians, and now widely available in UK supermarkets, are good sources of phytoestrogens and contribute to reduced cancer risk, moderation of post-menopausal symptoms in women and reduced LDL cholesterol. These vegetable protein sources are also virtually fat-free. What you should also try to do is avoid fatty, non-organic meats that deliver saturated fats and have accumulated toxic chemicals.

Guideline 4

Fats are good for you, as long as they are the right type. They should especially come from plants (notably oils and seeds) and fish, rather than from farm animals. They should also not be processed. Unsaturated fats, like extra virgin olive oil, hemp oil and flax oil, are well known to be very good for you, as are fats and oils in open water, non-polluted fish. Don’t scrimp on these healthy fats, they are a wonderful energy source and contain nutrients, like essential fatty acids, that are very good for you. You can use them in cooking and in salad dressings. Avoid saturated fats in cheap and processed meats. Also avoid trans and hydrogenated fats as found in many processed foods.

Guideline 5

Consume as much organic and farm-fresh food as your budget will allow. When it comes to prioritising, ensure that whenever you are dealing with fatty foods, such as meats and dairy—as well as salad vegetables and fruits, go for organic. This helps to reduce your chemical load. Another benefit of certified organic foods is that crops must be grown in the soil, so you get uptake of trace and ultra-trace minerals. Many people don’t realise that a large amount of the non-organic salad produce bought in supermarkets is grown hydroponically in water containing a very limited range of nutrients. Such crops, for example tomatoes, peppers (capsicums) and cucumbers, won’t have ever touched soil!

Guideline 6

Take high quality supplements to fill the nutritional gap between your foods and the levels and types of nutrients required for optimum health. The micronutrients that most people are low in include specific vitamins, minerals and plant nutrients, as well as Omega-3 fatty acids, as found in oily, cold water fish and high quality fish oil or plant-based oil supplements.

When taking vitamins and minerals, try to, as far as possible, rely on food-form vitamins and minerals as these are in the same form to the nutrients in natural foods to which are bodies are adapted.

High dosages of nutrients, best taken under the direction of a qualified nutritional or functional medicine therapist, can be very helpful to restore normal physiological functions and good health. High dose nutritional therapy is however heavily under attack by regulators, especially in Europe.

Renowned medical doctor and nutritionist, Dr Emanuel Cheraskin, of Alabama University Medical School, proposed Suggested Optimal Nutritional Allowances (SONAs) in place of Recommended Daily Allowances (RDAs) as early as the 1980s.

Along with his colleague, WM Ringsdorf, Cheraskin also found decades ago that nutritional requirements increase substantially as we age (e.g. Cheraskin and Ringsdorf, Risk Factors in the Aging Process, The Journal of the Royal Society for the Promotion of Health, 1973; 93: 302-304). Is it any surprise that the over-50s are some of the most enthusiastic consumers of vitamins?

For further information on the scientific case for supplementation, download an article by Dr Robert Verkerk entitled the 'The case for nutritional supplementation'.

Exceptions to that obviously would be food intolerances, or if you had dietary restrictions or thyroid problems then modifications may need to be made.. But its a good general diet to follow :)

[JustTess]

As for ADD, I don't think this is the result of anxiety disorder. Keep in mind, though, that anxiety disorder DOES have a negative effect on one's ability to focus and concentrate. However, this is not the same thing as ADD, and should not be confused for ADD.

Very true. Since my son was dx last year, I have been wondering if I really did have ADD before my panic attacks happend. It would certainly account for many incidents. My triggers currently is sometimes speaking in front of a crowd which is a good part of my job. If Im stressed and I don't prepare cognitively, I'm likely to forget my own name.

Suppose a person does have both ADHD/ADD and anxiety issues, Which gets treated first?

[square]

When I medicated for ADD I had no anxiety whatsoever. Nothing.

Being able to focus alleviated much anxiety.

I was also very social and spontaneous.

Of course, there are serious issues with ADD meds - consult a doctor.

Hope it works out.

[new2anxiety]

I had high frequency sound damage. It caused extreme anxiety. It took a combination of several things to help. First I had to cover my ear for more than half of each day to keep out sound(sound sensitivity). The other issue was an odd discovery. I couldn't stay out of the hospital for 2 1/2 months until I bought purified water from the store. I am guessing the chemicals in the city water elevated the sound problem. I hope this helps someone.