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View Full Version : The "you cannot be 100% cured because of neural pathways" argument debunked.



RossySoonDone
01-29-2017, 02:15 PM
This is a direct response I made on another post to another user who made the fair point that neural pathways can never be 100% forgotten, thus anxiety cannot be 100% cured. I hope it sheds light on any doubters who don't believe they can be 100% cured of anxiety or nervous illness when its the only target they should be aiming for. You wouldn't settle to be 75% cured from any other curable illness would you?



The neural pathways you speak of cannot be completely erased, no. But just as someone who stops driving a car for a decade, or stops playing the piano, much of the old learnt behaviour is temporarily lost. However, you jump back in the car and start to remember how to drive again because the neural pathways are still there blah blah blah. We can agree thus far, right?

HOWEVER, in terms of anxiety, the amygdala is in a different part of the brain and works irrespective of "learnt neural pathways", like with functions that control our metabolism and heart rate. Do you think the brain has to search for previously learnt knowledge deep inside the neural pathways to figure out that a tiger is dangerous? This isn't something we learn and build neural pathways towards - thankfully the amygdala will kick irrespective of what we already know along with an adrenaline/fight or flight response.

What you're saying is that anxiety can never be totally cured because neural pathways never disappear. You're 100% correct about the neural pathways not disappearing completely, but think about it... You go and see a scary film in the cinema, your amygdala is activated and you start to feel adrenaline, you're sweaty and panicky etc. After the film or some time after the film the amygdala response subsides but your learnt neural pathways will always remain, you will essentially always remember the film. However, now when you think about the film sometime down the line it becomes obsolete! Why? Well for one; you consciously know that there isn't any real danger and two; because the amygdala no longer perceives the film as being a real threat, you can think about the film all you like based on previously learnt neural pathways but it will no longer trigger a response

Even when you're watching the film in the cinema YOU KNOW its not real and YOU KNOW that theres no real threat but your amygdala DOESN'T KNOW THE DIFFERENCE. Thats where an anxiety illness comes from, the amygdala basically perceives things as danger that aren't real danger.

Think about what you're saying - your logic is only 50% correct.

So yes, the amygdala CAN be reset back to its birth preset and that doesn't mean you'll forget the old behaviours but why does that matter when the amygdala doesn't call these old behaviours into action? Based on your logic, every time I think about The Grudge I'll be shitting my pants because the thought alone should trigger an anxiety response like it did when I first watched it. Maybe I should do some CBT so that I can learn that the Grudge isn't a real threat lmao. THINK ABOUT YOUR LOGIC. Oh and on that note, the beloved CBT you speak of is totally flawed and follows the same logic.

Do you get what I'm saying? And if not let me know where I'm wrong, I enjoy talking about this topic because it further reinforces the fact that its possible to be 100% cured

martin05
01-29-2017, 03:40 PM
Hi Rossy,

I'm Martin. I'm a pre-med student, and want to answer this question. I hope you accept my reply, even though your question seems to be aimed at somebody else.

The mistake you seem to be making is assuming the amygdala alone is responsible for anxiety. Other areas of the brain such as the hippocampus and the basal ganglia also play big roles in nervous disorders. And these don't return to preset base states like the amygdala does.

This is the reason we don't even like using the word "cure" in the medical field when it comes to mental illness. We prefer the word "remission". This word implies that the person is free from mental symptoms, but has the potential to relapse if certain physiological or psychological patterns hidden in the brain and nervous system re-emerge.

From a medical perspective "100% cure" just isn't accurate.

RossySoonDone
01-29-2017, 04:50 PM
Thats for your post Martin. I've looked up the hippocampus and the basal ganglia and they don't seem to play a prominent role with anxiety based on my brief research - but thats just based on a quick wiki skim-through. I don't see anything about the basal ganglia playing a prominent role in anxiety and it seems to function with eye movements, motivation, decision making and working memory.

I think the problem most suffers face is the "amygdala hijack" which completely overrides all rational thought and this leads to the vicious cycle of the anxiety "disorder" itself, and this in fact can be completely eradicated. Also, you say mental symptoms like its a mental illness. This is also something I highly disagree on.

I can almost put my money on the amygdala being the main culprit and remission or not, I'm a firm believer in being 100% cured :). I suppose ignorance may prove to be blissful in my case. Thanks again for the post, I will definitely research more when I have time because the hippocampus and basal ganglia are things I have no thorough knowledge of.

martin05
01-29-2017, 06:50 PM
Hi,

You're right! The amygdala is the main culprit in most anxiety disorders. Think of it as a processing chip that has been set to wrongly categorise neutral experiences as negative. The basal ganglia and hippocampus, on the other hand, are like the hard drive in the brain: They're the deep reptilian parts of us that store information from our lives. They play a role in habit formation, emotional health, and nervous system regulation. Unfortunately, these parts of the brain don't seem to totally forget experiences and past habits; although, research has shown they can be taught new ways to behave, which then become the default setting (neuroplasticity).

From a personal standpoint, I think believing in a 100% cure is ok. The placebo effect has shown to be very effective when it comes to anxiety, which is why most books and online programs spend pages trying to convince you they'll work and they're valid. The problem I see is people believing remission is a sign of failure or a sign somebody did something wrong. Truth is, most anxiety disorders just can't be fully cured and can come out of remission thanks to psychological and physiological changes that are outside a person's immediate control. The worry we have medically is that such a person will then begin to doubt therapies that have previously worked or blame themselves for their setback. The second worry we have regarding the idea of a cure is that a person will forgo treatments that currently work moderately well for them in favour of this often unattainable "100% cure".

If you find the placebo effect of believing in a 100% cure works for you, that's awesome. By all means, keep it up! With proper behavioural modifications, many people never have to experience the horrors of anxiety ever again. However you get there doesn't really matter. The goal is to get there.

PanicCured
01-29-2017, 08:01 PM
Hi Rossy,

I'm Martin. I'm a pre-med student, and want to answer this question. I hope you accept my reply, even though your question seems to be aimed at somebody else.

The mistake you seem to be making is assuming the amygdala alone is responsible for anxiety. Other areas of the brain such as the hippocampus and the basal ganglia also play big roles in nervous disorders. And these don't return to preset base states like the amygdala does.

This is the reason we don't even like using the word "cure" in the medical field when it comes to mental illness. We prefer the word "remission". This word implies that the person is free from mental symptoms, but has the potential to relapse if certain physiological or psychological patterns hidden in the brain and nervous system re-emerge.

From a medical perspective "100% cure" just isn't accurate.

How about asking you medical school teachers why they still have no way to help someone overcome anxiety while at the same time getting people hooked on Benzos?

martin05
01-29-2017, 08:19 PM
How about asking you medical school teachers why they still have no way to help someone overcome anxiety while at the same time getting people hooked on Benzos?

Psychotherapy, such as CBT, has a rather impressive record of treating anxiety. Psychotherapy is, of course, a type of medical discipline.

Use of benzos is a problem in America, but this is largely to do with the healthcare system. In countries like England, Canada and Australia, where healthcare treatments aren't insurance-based, benzo usage is far lower than it is in America.

By the way, you're once again committing a logical fallacy. I know somebody mentioned this on the thread I just replied in. Just because there's a flaw in one aspect of the discipline, doesn't mean the findings of the entire discipline are to be written off.

If you have a more effective method of treating anxiety that can be proven in a clinical setting, by all means do the world a favor and share it.

Kirk
01-29-2017, 08:27 PM
I have a few clients who are medical professionals and they said in medicine 100% cures are not realistic.

RossySoonDone
01-30-2017, 02:05 PM
I'm still pretty convinced one can be 100% cured. How can one even start contemplating remission before getting to the curative stage? It's another form of anxiety what-if thoughts, thinking way in the future about something that likely won't happen once better. I appreciate the information however, but my own personal experience and recent eureka-moments tell me otherwise about the condition.

PanicCured
01-30-2017, 04:46 PM
If you have a more effective method of treating anxiety that can be proven in a clinical setting, by all means do the world a favor and share it.

Because we all know clinical setting are always perfect right? Remember when we were told margarine is healthier than butter or how about formula is healthier than breast milk? How about dietary cholesterol is bad than it is not bad and now does neon has many idea at all? You say CBT is so great but much of what I write is a form of CBT.

PanicCured
01-30-2017, 04:47 PM
I have a few clients who are medical professionals and they said in medicine 100% cures are not realistic.


That is why you also need to change your life and habits too and put in the work!