The people on here are supporting you into a lifetime sentence of anxiety

[RossySoonDone]

Having a peak into some of the threads on here is literally insane...

The majority of support, guidance and information that people trade on here is just beating around the bush, and for anyone who has been seeking recovery for years on end, it should be clear that there is no miracle cure and you will not get better until you put in the actual ground work.

There was a semi-heated discussion where one user asked for a buddy to essentially lean on when things get though. This is the exact thing that is feeding anxiety and essentially telling the subconscious that you're unable to cope alone. So, as a few users informed her/him of this vital information, there were revered members with thousands of posts telling them that its in fact OK to seek a safe person and some were even offering to assist! What kind of diluted bullcrap is that, seriously.

I urge you all to watch a small documentary called 'Let There Be Light - 1946 (Restored Image and Sound)' on Youtube and take a page out of their book for recovery. These people are among the most traumatised you will ever see having fought in World War 2 yet they still manage to cure themselves 100% of anxiety, PTSD, trauma, or whatever you wish to call it. They were lucky to have a great psychologist who understood the fundamentals to recovery through the reintroduction of activity such as painting, engineering, crafting, gymnastics and team sport - things that all suffers will avoid with a bargepole because they're waiting to get better before they do anything. It doesn't work like that!! The route to recovery is to actually do things regardless of current feelings.

Luckily back in the 1940s these people had no other option but to take the doctors advice as gospel because there were no forums for people to suggest finding a "safe place" when anxious or any other advice that just treads safely around the real route to recovery. Back then doctors were less forgiving and saw the nervous illness for what it was!!! I'm starting to believe a lot of the people want to remain anxious on here out of comfort and because its easier than the work needed for recovery.

This is my rant over but for anyone that wishes to dispute anything I'm saying because "you're anxiety is different" to other people; let me throw you a in between a barrage of artillery and gun fire and see how anxious you really feel. Even then, there is still a route to recovery, as demonstrated in the above short film, and despite everything these people went through, they didn't feel sorry for themselves or cower away from what was needed to be done.

As a rough framework on what to do, look through PanicCured's sticky posts on the general page or via his profile because he is the only guy speaking sense on this forum. The fact that people attack him for the valuable information he offers (AS SOMEONE WHO IS 100% CURED BARE IN MIND) is actually mind boggling. Here you've got someone who has 100% cured themselves, telling you exactly what worked and what didn't, yet a lot of you still find ways to dispute and argue against what he's saying. His words are the basis to anxiety curation and demonstrated in the above documentary Let There Be Light.

And as for my advice, before even looking at the post as to what steps to take, look in the mirror and ask yourself "Is this how I want to be for the rest of my life?". Start to understand that a lot of your irrational beliefs are stemming from a place of anxiety. The sooner you can change your mindset, the sooner you can jump on the correct path to recovery.

I hope this gets through to some of you :)

[Deviousiphone]

Your reply depends entirely on having support, most don't, welcome to the real world

[Deviousiphone]

I wouldn't mind I am somewhat cured I personally think it comes with age, but absolute nonsense

[Kirk]

What works for one person, may not work for another. Many need to experiment and see whats works best for them.

[gypsylee]

I watched some of the movie. Those guys were allowed to smoke at the therapy sessions! That's the real secret ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLVSohBg_yA

[Kirk]

For some, anxiety improves with age.

[Nicolette]

Anxiety can't be 100% cured. Maybe if you guys showed you actually understood the human brain, you'd be taken more seriously.

Neuro-pathways are never destroyed, so the anxiety pathway PanicCured had is still there. He's just found a better way of living which has created new pathways.

Good for him. But to say he's "100% cured" is just silly.


Luckily back in the 1940s these people had no other option but to take the doctors advice as gospel because there were no forums for people to suggest finding a "safe place" when anxious or any other advice that just treads safely around the real route to recovery. Back then doctors were less forgiving and saw the nervous illness for what it was!!! I'm starting to believe a lot of the people want to remain anxious on here out of comfort and because its easier than the work needed for recovery.

And the lack of support and understanding lead many people suffering PTSD and nervous illnesses to become alcoholics or even commit suicide. Don't omit the negative aspects of such treatment. You're trying to convince people of your point using a fallacy of reasoning.

As Kirk said, there's no one way to treat anxiety.

[Deviousiphone]

Anxiety can't be 100% cured. Maybe if you guys showed you actually understood the human brain, you'd be taken more seriously.

Neuro-pathways are never destroyed, so the anxiety pathway PanicCured had is still there. He's just found a better way of living which has created new pathways.

Good for him. But to say he's "100% cured" is just silly.



And the lack of support and understanding lead many people suffering PTSD and nervous illnesses to become alcoholics or even commit suicide. Don't omit the negative aspects of such treatment. You're trying to convince people of your point using a fallacy of reasoning.

As Kirk said, there's no one way to treat anxiety.

I have never seen such logic deployed so rationally thank you!

[PanicCured]

Anxiety can't be 100% cured. Maybe if you guys showed you actually understood the human brain, you'd be taken more seriously.

Neuro-pathways are never destroyed, so the anxiety pathway PanicCured had is still there. He's just found a better way of living which has created new pathways.

Good for him. But to say he's "100% cured" is just silly.

Where do you get these idiotic ideas? Reminds me of what is said in NA and AA how they will always be addicts and can never be cured so the only solution is their program and to keep coming. How do they know you can never be cured of alcoholism? Show me proof Alcoholism is a disease that even exists. You just accept these ideas as truth.

Anxiety can't be cured is total unproven BS and it offers you no benefit to even look at it like this. I was getting panic attacks all day long, now I do not. It's that simple. If only we understood the brain as well as you do, right? The type of anxiety we are talking about is a behavioral problem that can be learned. Have you heard of CBT? You have no idea if what you said about neurons is true.

It really is not so complicated, but the OP here is basically pointing out people like you tell people they can't get better and offering bad advice which is counter-productive. You actually helped prove his point.

[Nicolette]

Where do you get these idiotic ideas?

It's basic neuroscience (http://news.mit.edu/2005/habit). Pathways in the brain degrade over time, but very rarely do they truly erase. That would make no sense from an evolutionary perspective. The brain keeps a wide range of conditioned responses on hand to refer back to if different stimuli arise. It's why relapses among patients with brain-related conditions are so frequent, even after extended periods of time.

Now, I'm not being pessimistic. Neuroplasticity is great and means we can change our behaviours to some degree. But the idea of "100% cures" and "amygdala resets" are laughable. CBT -- a method I'm fond of -- works by creating more effective neural pathways, not by deleting old ones or pressing a reset button on the brain.


Reminds me of what is said in NA and AA how they will always be addicts and can never be cured so the only solution is their program and to keep coming. How do they know you can never be cured of alcoholism? Show me proof Alcoholism is a disease that even exists. You just accept these ideas as truth.

You need to put down your copy of The Secret before you harm someone. Hopefully anyone struggling with addiction goes and tries tested therapies. They'll find them far more successful than listening to some guy on the internet whose scientific accomplishments amount to two sticky threads on a small anxiety forum.

[fixmybrokenmind]

This forum has become so hostile over the last few days it is ridiculous.

[gypsylee]

That happens when PC reappears. I'm serious - I've seen this many times.

He comes back here after being "100% cured" to tell us all how we are failing at recovering and don't actually want to get better :rolleyes:

[Teafrenzy]

I don't want to cause any tension either but I agree with PC.

You can get better and recover from anxiety, thousands of people have done it. Thousands of people have done it using therapy (CBT) alone.

Since we are all about 99.9% the same genetically, I don't see how it could work for others and not some.

[Nicolette]

I don't want to cause any tension either but I agree with PC.

You can get better and recover from anxiety, thousands of people have done it. Thousands of people have done it using therapy (CBT) alone.

Since we are all about 99.9% the same genetically, I don't see how it could work for others and not some.

You can undoubtedly get better from anxiety.

The problem dozens of people have had with PC over the years isn't his advice, it's his belief that only his way works. He's called people venting problems "stupid", he's made people feel guilty for seeking support from others, he's accused vulnerable people of not wanting to get better or not trying hard enough. And if people answer back, he rubs the fact he's "100% cured" in their faces (while reminding them that they're not).

It's been 4 years since he joined, there's been many arguments involving him. He still hasn't learned that nobody really has a problem with his advice. It's his attitude that everybody who doesn't follow his Linden-lite method of treatment is wrong. Studies have shown it's effective for some people, but at least 60% don't benefit from such treatment. (See the NICE guidelines for stats).

If he dropped the belief he has mental illness all figured out, and accepted there are countless causes and treatments for anxiety, everyone would get off his back and appreciate his contribution.

[PanicCured]

I don't want to cause any tension either but I agree with PC.

You can get better and recover from anxiety, thousands of people have done it. Thousands of people have done it using therapy (CBT) alone.

Since we are all about 99.9% the same genetically, I don't see how it could work for others and not some.

You are forgetting the element is wanting to get better. I also used to think that everyone suffering form severe anxiety wants to get better and take advice, but many really have no interest in getting better. I think it becomes part of their identity or even allows them excuses. Hey, I don't have to go to Aunt Matilda's for Christmas because I have anxiety. Changing behaviors to retrain the brain and taking supplements to help is rocket science to some people.

[PanicCured]

You can undoubtedly get better from anxiety.

The problem dozens of people have had with PC over the years isn't his advice, it's his belief that only his way works. He's called people venting problems "stupid", he's made people feel guilty for seeking support from others, he's accused vulnerable people of not wanting to get better or not trying hard enough. And if people answer back, he rubs the fact he's "100% cured" in their faces (while reminding them that they're not).

It's been 4 years since he joined, there's been many arguments involving him. He still hasn't learned that nobody really has a problem with his advice. It's his attitude that everybody who doesn't follow his Linden-lite method of treatment is wrong. Studies have shown it's effective for some people, but at least 60% don't benefit from such treatment. (See the NICE guidelines for stats).

If he dropped the belief he has mental illness all figured out, and accepted there are countless causes and treatments for anxiety, everyone would get off his back and appreciate his contribution.

What is MY way? I just throw out the most basic common sense stuff. You guys really over complicate everything.

[PanicCured]

Having a peak into some of the threads on here is literally insane...

The majority of support, guidance and information that people trade on here is just beating around the bush, and for anyone who has been seeking recovery for years on end, it should be clear that there is no miracle cure and you will not get better until you put in the actual ground work.

There was a semi-heated discussion where one user asked for a buddy to essentially lean on when things get though. This is the exact thing that is feeding anxiety and essentially telling the subconscious that you're unable to cope alone. So, as a few users informed her/him of this vital information, there were revered members with thousands of posts telling them that its in fact OK to seek a safe person and some were even offering to assist! What kind of diluted bullcrap is that, seriously.

I urge you all to watch a small documentary called 'Let There Be Light - 1946 (Restored Image and Sound)' on Youtube and take a page out of their book for recovery. These people are among the most traumatised you will ever see having fought in World War 2 yet they still manage to cure themselves 100% of anxiety, PTSD, trauma, or whatever you wish to call it. They were lucky to have a great psychologist who understood the fundamentals to recovery through the reintroduction of activity such as painting, engineering, crafting, gymnastics and team sport - things that all suffers will avoid with a bargepole because they're waiting to get better before they do anything. It doesn't work like that!! The route to recovery is to actually do things regardless of current feelings.

Luckily back in the 1940s these people had no other option but to take the doctors advice as gospel because there were no forums for people to suggest finding a "safe place" when anxious or any other advice that just treads safely around the real route to recovery. Back then doctors were less forgiving and saw the nervous illness for what it was!!! I'm starting to believe a lot of the people want to remain anxious on here out of comfort and because its easier than the work needed for recovery.

This is my rant over but for anyone that wishes to dispute anything I'm saying because "you're anxiety is different" to other people; let me throw you a in between a barrage of artillery and gun fire and see how anxious you really feel. Even then, there is still a route to recovery, as demonstrated in the above short film, and despite everything these people went through, they didn't feel sorry for themselves or cower away from what was needed to be done.

As a rough framework on what to do, look through PanicCured's sticky posts on the general page or via his profile because he is the only guy speaking sense on this forum. The fact that people attack him for the valuable information he offers (AS SOMEONE WHO IS 100% CURED BARE IN MIND) is actually mind boggling. Here you've got someone who has 100% cured themselves, telling you exactly what worked and what didn't, yet a lot of you still find ways to dispute and argue against what he's saying. His words are the basis to anxiety curation and demonstrated in the above documentary Let There Be Light.

And as for my advice, before even looking at the post as to what steps to take, look in the mirror and ask yourself "Is this how I want to be for the rest of my life?". Start to understand that a lot of your irrational beliefs are stemming from a place of anxiety. The sooner you can change your mindset, the sooner you can jump on the correct path to recovery.

I hope this gets through to some of you :)

What's funny is you actually think people you are writing to, want to get better, and will read what you wrote, a light bulb will go off and then then it will help them towards their recovery.

Here's the bottom line: People that want to overcome anxiety will, people who do not want to won't.

[RoadToRecovery]

I think it's important to distinguish anxiety from an anxiety disorder - which several people on this forum have to some degree.

Everyone experiences anxiety at least from time to time. It is helpful in certain situations to alert us when something is genuinely dangerous, such as a car heading towards us at full speed. Stress hormones travel to various areas in our bodies to bring about certain biological, psychological, and emotional changes to prepare us for action. It is a biological function. Anxiety can be useful, and we do not want to permanently get rid of it.

Anxiety disorder on the other hand is what many (including myself) suffer from. It becomes a disorder when the symptoms start interfering in your everyday life. An anxiety disorder can be cured to the point to where it no longer interferes in your day-to-day life. As far as neurological pathways are concerned, I cannot comment on that. However, I do know several people who have completely overcome anxiety disorder and it no longer interferes with their day-to-day life; they returned to normal health and are medication-free.

They still feel anxiety from time to time, but like I said, anxiety is a perfectly normal biological function with our bodies that we do not want to get rid of.

I have suffered from anxiety disorder for over four years, but am now at a point where I am seeing true recovery. I started seeing results when I finally found the right information and a therapist who had overcome anxiety disorder herself. It's very important to understand the physiological side of anxiety disorder along with the psychological side of it.

It is true that there are certain medical conditions that can cause or mimic anxiety or anxiety symptoms. However, these should be considered an exception, not the rule. It's always wise to see your doctor to rule out anything medical-related.

[RoadToRecovery]

PanicCured - I don't think anyone on this forum wants anxiety disorder at all. It can be painful, terrifying, confusing, draining....it can make you feel hopeless, lost, etc. I've been there. I just think that most people don't have an understanding of how to get better. It's not that they don't want to get better, they just don't know how. This forum has provided help and hope to many that are feeling lost. This can be a helpful place that can assist in the recovery process.

I do agree that it takes action on our part. There are some out there that want to complain about their disorder, but don't want to do anything about it. Some have given up because they've tried so long to get better but have been unsuccessful.

I myself tried for four long, painful years to get rid of this. I ran several miles a day, completely changed my diet to healthy foods, whole grains, several vegetables, healthy fats, cut out caffeine, most sugar, went to five different psychologists, tried vitamins, minerals, medication, memorized hundreds of bible verses. I did everything I could possibly think of to get rid of it, and was mostly unsuccessful. I can't tell you how many hours of my life Ive spent over the past four years trying to get rid of this....thousands upon thousands. There was no lack of effort on my part, I simply just did not have an understanding on what it took to overcome my disorder. I think a lot of people on this forum are like that. When you say that many don't want to get better - I don't think that's true. Who would want to have this?

You are correct that you can recover from this disorder. I am finally seeing the light after four years of intense pain with this trying to figure it out. Please try to remember when you were in the thick of your panic - I'm sure there were times when you felt hopeless and didn't understand it. Try to be empathic with people on here. There are many different ways people have recovered from an anxiety disorder, not just one. Some people work better with different therapists. And there are also varying degrees of severity of anxiety disorder too.

For example, I got to the point to where I was experiencing panic attacks out of nowhere. I wasn't even thinking anxious thoughts when they happened. They would just - boom - out of nowhere hit me, which frightened me. Our bodies can get so hyperstimulated over time they will act erratically and involuntarily. This is very scary for those who don't know how to overcome an anxiety disorder, because it feels like they have no control over it. I can understand why there are many that feel that they can't overcome this for these reasons, because I used to feel the same way. It can make you feel so helpless and out of control.

I am happy to hear that you overcame your anxiety. I think it's great that you are trying to help those with their anxiety. However, I think people would be a lot more receptive with a gentler approach. No one wants to feel put down, ya know?

[gypsylee]

What is MY way? I just throw out the most basic common sense stuff. You guys really over complicate everything.

I've seen you throw fits at people because you gave them advice and then you weren't happy with their response (even if they were grateful they didn't specifically say "ok I'm going away to do a, b and c like PC suggested"). I might still have anxiety but I have a good memory!

[PanicCured]

I think it's important to distinguish anxiety from an anxiety disorder - which several people on this forum have to some degree.

Everyone experiences anxiety at least from time to time. It is helpful in certain situations to alert us when something is genuinely dangerous, such as a car heading towards us at full speed. Stress hormones travel to various areas in our bodies to bring about certain biological, psychological, and emotional changes to prepare us for action. It is a biological function. Anxiety can be useful, and we do not want to permanently get rid of it.

Anxiety disorder on the other hand is what many (including myself) suffer from. It becomes a disorder when the symptoms start interfering in your everyday life. An anxiety disorder can be cured to the point to where it no longer interferes in your day-to-day life. As far as neurological pathways are concerned, I cannot comment on that. However, I do know several people who have completely overcome anxiety disorder and it no longer interferes with their day-to-day life; they returned to normal health and are medication-free.

They still feel anxiety from time to time, but like I said, anxiety is a perfectly normal biological function with our bodies that we do not want to get rid of.

I have suffered from anxiety disorder for over four years, but am now at a point where I am seeing true recovery. I started seeing results when I finally found the right information and a therapist who had overcome anxiety disorder herself. It's very important to understand the physiological side of anxiety disorder along with the psychological side of it.

It is true that there are certain medical conditions that can cause or mimic anxiety or anxiety symptoms. However, these should be considered an exception, not the rule. It's always wise to see your doctor to rule out anything medical-related.

This is correct! Anxiety Disorder is the problem, not getting anxious over something that makes sense. But the full blown fight or flight panic attack, it is really really hard for a body that has been recovered to go into that once it's got better. You may get extreme fear or freak out in extreme situations, but the full on panic attack, that would be really hard and rare for a body that has been recovered to go into.

[PanicCured]

I've seen you throw fits at people because you gave them advice and then you weren't happy with their response (even if they were grateful they didn't specifically say "ok I'm going away to do a, b and c like PC suggested"). I might still have anxiety but I have a good memory!

I really couldn't care less about anything you have to say!

[PanicCured]

PanicCured - I don't think anyone on this forum wants anxiety disorder at all. It can be painful, terrifying, confusing, draining....it can make you feel hopeless, lost, etc. I've been there. I just think that most people don't have an understanding of how to get better. It's not that they don't want to get better, they just don't know how. This forum has provided help and hope to many that are feeling lost. This can be a helpful place that can assist in the recovery process.

I do agree that it takes action on our part. There are some out there that want to complain about their disorder, but don't want to do anything about it. Some have given up because they've tried so long to get better but have been unsuccessful.

I myself tried for four long, painful years to get rid of this. I ran several miles a day, completely changed my diet to healthy foods, whole grains, several vegetables, healthy fats, cut out caffeine, most sugar, went to five different psychologists, tried vitamins, minerals, medication, memorized hundreds of bible verses. I did everything I could possibly think of to get rid of it, and was mostly unsuccessful. I can't tell you how many hours of my life Ive spent over the past four years trying to get rid of this....thousands upon thousands. There was no lack of effort on my part, I simply just did not have an understanding on what it took to overcome my disorder. I think a lot of people on this forum are like that. When you say that many don't want to get better - I don't think that's true. Who would want to have this?

You are correct that you can recover from this disorder. I am finally seeing the light after four years of intense pain with this trying to figure it out. Please try to remember when you were in the thick of your panic - I'm sure there were times when you felt hopeless and didn't understand it. Try to be empathic with people on here. There are many different ways people have recovered from an anxiety disorder, not just one. Some people work better with different therapists. And there are also varying degrees of severity of anxiety disorder too.

For example, I got to the point to where I was experiencing panic attacks out of nowhere. I wasn't even thinking anxious thoughts when they happened. They would just - boom - out of nowhere hit me, which frightened me. Our bodies can get so hyperstimulated over time they will act erratically and involuntarily. This is very scary for those who don't know how to overcome an anxiety disorder, because it feels like they have no control over it. I can understand why there are many that feel that they can't overcome this for these reasons, because I used to feel the same way. It can make you feel so helpless and out of control.

I am happy to hear that you overcame your anxiety. I think it's great that you are trying to help those with their anxiety. However, I think people would be a lot more receptive with a gentler approach. No one wants to feel put down, ya know?

I think many people do not want to get better, you are someone who really does though. Nobody wants to have a panic attack, but I think many people refuse to do the work to get better, because they built their identity and life around it. Actually, this is common with many chronic disorders. You don't think like this, but I think many do. It's kind of like some of the people that live on welfare their whole lives. They complain they can't get a job and the system is unfair, but if they were offered a great job, they would turn it down because they like their lazy gov't dependent life. They will fight you why they need to be on welfare and refuse to work. I think we have a similar thing here. Some people with anxiety just sit in their homes and play video games all day and anxiety is the perfect excuse to be lazy. But this is mainly subconscious. So you have people who go on welfare and food stamps in desperate times while getting their lives together which makes sense, but you have others who just assume this is how they will live their lives without seeking a better life. Similar psychology.

[RossySoonDone]

The neural pathways you speak of cannot be completely erased, no. But just as someone who stops driving a car for a decade, or stops playing the piano, much of the old learnt behaviour is temporarily lost. However, you jump back in the car and start to remember how to drive again because the neural pathways are still there blah blah blah. We can agree thus far, right?

HOWEVER, in terms of anxiety, the amygdala is in a different part of the brain and works irrespective of "learnt neural pathways", like with functions that control our metabolism and heart rate. Do you think the brain has to search for previously learnt knowledge deep inside the neural pathways to figure out that a tiger is dangerous? This isn't something we learn and build neural pathways towards - thankfully the amygdala will kick irrespective of what we already know along with an adrenaline/fight or flight response.

What you're saying is that anxiety can never be totally cured because neural pathways never disappear. You're 100% correct about the neural pathways not disappearing completely, but think about it... You go and see a scary film in the cinema, your amygdala is activated and you start to feel adrenaline, you're sweaty and panicky etc. After the film or some time after the film the amygdala response subsides but your learnt neural pathways will always remain, you will essentially always remember the film. However, now when you think about the film sometime down the line it becomes obsolete! Why? Well for one; you consciously know that there isn't any real danger and two; because the amygdala no longer perceives the film as being a real threat, you can think about the film all you like based on previously learnt neural pathways but it will no longer trigger a response

Even when you're watching the film in the cinema YOU KNOW its not real and YOU KNOW that theres no real threat but your amygdala DOESN'T KNOW THE DIFFERENCE. Thats where an anxiety illness comes from, the amygdala basically perceives things as danger that aren't real danger.

Think about what you're saying - your logic is only 50% correct.

So yes, the amygdala CAN be reset back to its birth preset and that doesn't mean you'll forget the old behaviours but why does that matter when the amygdala doesn't call these old behaviours into action? Based on your logic, every time I think about The Grudge I'll be shitting my pants because the thought alone should trigger an anxiety response like it did when I first watched it. Maybe I should do some CBT so that I can learn that the Grudge isn't a real threat lmao. THINK ABOUT YOUR LOGIC. Oh and on that note, the beloved CBT you speak of is totally flawed and follows the same logic.

Do you get what I'm saying? And if not let me know where I'm wrong, I enjoy talking about this topic because it further reinforces the fact that its possible to be 100% cured :)

[gypsylee]

Then there was the time you had a tantrum about how "some people use this forum like social media!" LOL.

[RossySoonDone]

Then there was the time you had a tantrum about how "some people use this forum like social media!" LOL.

They do, whats your point?

Edit: I'd put money on you being one of them. You joined over 3 years ago and you still have nothing constructive to contribute. Everything I've posted thus far has been constructive and supportive to those wishing to recover. I think theres two types of anxiety suffers; those who want and are willing to learn how to overcome the disorder and those who spend more time coping and pulling others down others in the process *cough* *cough*.

So you can carry on playing your little Facebook games as a distraction if you wish, but don't go pulling down others to your level so you've got someone to share the same fate with.

[gypsylee]

https://youtu.be/f3_Lfpj7_DU

[Teafrenzy]

You are forgetting the element is wanting to get better. I also used to think that everyone suffering form severe anxiety wants to get better and take advice, but many really have no interest in getting better. I think it becomes part of their identity or even allows them excuses. Hey, I don't have to go to Aunt Matilda's for Christmas because I have anxiety. Changing behaviors to retrain the brain and taking supplements to help is rocket science to some people.

I think everyone genuinely wants to get better. The problem is the amount of effort and time it takes to get better. I have been working on my condition for 3 1/2 months now and I still have more to go.

I read the commentary on supplements. Unfortunately, I don't think Supplements really do much to improve one's condition beyond a possible placebo effect. I have spoken to my GP and my Psychologist and they are adamant that CBT is the only really effective treatment. I tried using all kind of supplements but nothing really seemed to help much.

[Boo Bass]

Hi everyone

Its obvious the OP is just being provocative so doesnt merit a reply. So why am I replying? To get the number of posts up to 100.

Theres no place for disturbed argumentative people on a sensitive forum like this. Ignoring all his posts is the best approach.

I wont be checking back on this thread.

BB

[gypsylee]

Theres no place for disturbed argumentative people on a sensitive forum like this. Ignoring all his posts is the best approach.
BB

Well I'm a bit disturbed and argumentative ;) I operate on a few levels you see. I got some lulz out of this but yes it's getting old now.

Peace out BB and hope you're doing ok :)

[martin05]

I read the commentary on supplements. Unfortunately, I don't think Supplements really do much to improve one's condition beyond a possible placebo effect. I have spoken to my GP and my Psychologist and they are adamant that CBT is the only really effective treatment. I tried using all kind of supplements but nothing really seemed to help much.

I've read several of PanicCured's posts. Most seem to be based on the idea of the placebo effect.

Very little of what he's posted in this thread and in his stickies would stand up to scrutiny in a clinical setting. If I were to put money on why he's feeling better, I'd bet he was able to use the placebo effect to convince himself the methods he used totally cured him. An enviable position, I admit, but according to research, not something everybody can attain using the methods he talks about so enthusiastically.

Why do I believe he trades in the placebo effect? Well, his hostility at having his beliefs challenged, for one, and his unwavering projection of certainty in his ability to cure something trained clinicians say is incurable. Both are pretty strong give-aways.

To anybody wishing to follow Panic's advice: The placebo effect is powerful and may work in your favour. But it's unlikely to provide you with the full cure you're searching for. And if you're one of the many people genetically predisposed to reject placebo effects, most of his advice probably won't work at all.

[PanicCured]

I think everyone genuinely wants to get better. The problem is the amount of effort and time it takes to get better. I have been working on my condition for 3 1/2 months now and I still have more to go.

I read the commentary on supplements. Unfortunately, I don't think Supplements really do much to improve one's condition beyond a possible placebo effect. I have spoken to my GP and my Psychologist and they are adamant that CBT is the only really effective treatment. I tried using all kind of supplements but nothing really seemed to help much.

I think you feel this way because you are one of those people really trying to get better so you can't comprehend using anxiety as an excuse. CBT in one form or another really is the heart and soul of the healing process but supplements, the correct supplements are not placebo in any way. They really contain active ingredients that do have an effect and do heal. Your doctors you asked about have no knowledge of things like Chinese herbal formulas or the effects of Magnesium and Vitamin D3 and thing like this. It isn't their field.

If you see it as you are bringing your body and mind towards health, due to your own body's constant need for homeostasis, it wants to get there naturally, but the right supplements will actually help you get there faster. It's kind of like if you are sick with a bacterial infection, your body fights it with an immune system naturally, but if you are so sick, your immune system can't do it and may fail, so you need an anti-biotic. Theoretically you can heal yourself of anxiety without putting anything in your body, but if there are herbs or nutrients that will physically help heal what you are trying to heal, the logical choice would be to take them. You may chose not to do this, but I will not chalk them as placebo and rely on doctors to discredit them who know nothing about them.

It's a mix of healing the physical imbalance and changing behaviors little by little. But most important is learning to work though the anxiety when it arises rather than run and hide.

[PanicCured]

I've read several of PanicCured's posts. Most seem to be based on the idea of the placebo effect.

Then you may have read them, but not understood them. When you have a direct route to curing anxiety please let us know. I am sure you have a better system you just have not revealed it to us.


Very little of what he's posted in this thread and in his stickies would stand up to scrutiny in a clinical setting.

That is probably true, but unfortunately our clinics and doctors are not helping anyone cure anxiety but have no problems handing out addictive medicine like candy. So I may not have a billion dollars in studies but I have people who say it works. You can chose to live your life on Klonopins, Zanax and limitation if you want, since of course, that holds up to clinical studies.


If I were to put money on why he's feeling better, I'd bet he was able to use the placebo effect to convince himself the methods he used totally cured him. An enviable position, I admit, but according to research, not something everybody can attain using the methods he talks about so enthusiastically.

Please let me know where I can place this bet. I have bills to pay and can use the extra cash.


Why do I believe he trades in the placebo effect? Well, his hostility at having his beliefs challenged, for one, and his unwavering projection of certainty in his ability to cure something trained clinicians say is incurable. Both are pretty strong give-aways.

So if one has habit of over breathing, and does under breathing exercises to retrain their brain, that is a placebo huh? So if one is used to retreating to their safe space but learns to not do that, and changes destructive habits to productive ones that is placebo effect? Yeah all of this is so complicated isn't it? I guess CBT is placebo effect to you too?

I suppose if one is used to eating 3 gallons of ice cream a day, and then decides to replace ice cream with salads and gets healthier and loses weight, that is placebo, huh?

If one learns who to not go from slight anxious feelings to full on fight or flight by not reacting that is placebo, huh?


To anybody wishing to follow Panic's advice: The placebo effect is powerful and may work in your favour. But it's unlikely to provide you with the full cure you're searching for. And if you're one of the many people genetically predisposed to reject placebo effects, most of his advice probably won't work at all.

Let me help correct you: To anybody wishing to follow Panic's advice, you will have your anxiety disorder greatly reduced!

[martin05]

Let me help correct you: To anybody wishing to follow Panic's advice, you will have your anxiety disorder greatly reduced!


The effectiveness of the placebo is directly proportional to the amount of certainty one can project.

Your last post has given me no reason to change my judgements of you.

[Kirk]

I really don't think their is a cure all for anxiety. What works for one person may not work for another. Experimentation may be
needed to see what works best.

[Chemical Shaman]

I don't really have an anxiety disorder .. I ended up here somehow by searching MOAI anti-depressants which are used to make Ayahuasca.

But having read this whole caper, it's obvious this PanicCured guy is projecting a lot of frustration and anger onto the rest of the members, who are probably just struggling to get by and don't need to be told "this is why I'm cured and you're not!" and "I couldn't care less about anything you have to say!" I mean who recovers completely from severe anxiety and behaves in such an arrogant, uptight way?? I'd rather have anxiety than be like that!

That other guy - RossyWhatever - sounds like he's the same person btw..

-CS

[Teafrenzy]

I think you feel this way because you are one of those people really trying to get better so you can't comprehend using anxiety as an excuse. CBT in one form or another really is the heart and soul of the healing process but supplements, the correct supplements are not placebo in any way. They really contain active ingredients that do have an effect and do heal. Your doctors you asked about have no knowledge of things like Chinese herbal formulas or the effects of Magnesium and Vitamin D3 and thing like this. It isn't their field.

If you see it as you are bringing your body and mind towards health, due to your own body's constant need for homeostasis, it wants to get there naturally, but the right supplements will actually help you get there faster. It's kind of like if you are sick with a bacterial infection, your body fights it with an immune system naturally, but if you are so sick, your immune system can't do it and may fail, so you need an anti-biotic. Theoretically you can heal yourself of anxiety without putting anything in your body, but if there are herbs or nutrients that will physically help heal what you are trying to heal, the logical choice would be to take them. You may chose not to do this, but I will not chalk them as placebo and rely on doctors to discredit them who know nothing about them.

It's a mix of healing the physical imbalance and changing behaviors little by little. But most important is learning to work though the anxiety when it arises rather than run and hide.


I am not saying this to be confrontational. But give me some proof. Give me some proof that vitamin D3 and Magnesium supplements help you recover from anxiety more quickly. Let me see a clinical study where one group of participants are given these supplements and the other a placebo over 3 months and compare.

I have actually read about these supplements. If you are deficient in Magnesium or D3 and you supplement than this can help with anxiety. However, if you are already at adequate levels, there is no evidence that taking more into your body than what your body actually needs, will help you heal faster.

[RoadToRecovery]

Anxiety as a disorder can be completely cured and those suffering can attain normal, symptom and medication-free health. Often times, sufferers do not get better simply because they don't have the right information and resources to enable them to recover.

I cannot speak to the neuropathways. If there is evidence to suggest that, perhaps that is the case. It is 100% possible, however, to recover from an anxiety disorder in such a way that your bothersome symptoms that interfere with your day-to-day life disappear and are no longer problematic. As I have said previously, we cannot (and should not want to) get rid of the normal anxiety that everyone experiences from time to time to alert and prepare their bodies for genuine threats. It's anxiety disorder that can be cured. I think most on this forum are interested in getting rid of the disorder, and that can absolutely be cured 100% in time while doing the right kind of work/learning the right information.

There are hundreds, if not, thousands of people who have completely overcame anxiety as a disorder. The fact that they have recovered, such as PanicCured, is not "all in their head". I know someone who had a SEVERE anxiety disorder for over 12 years and was able to overcome it. He has been living anxiety disorder and medication-free for over 36 years now. That is not "all in his head". It is true, genuine recovery.

Most importantly, anxiety disorder is NOT an incurable mental illness that dooms those who have it to a lifetime of suffering and lower quality of life. Many believe that (as I once did), and I discovered over time that this was false. The medical community has been unsuccessful in finding a biological cure for anxiety disorder because (in the vast majority of cases) it is not caused for biological reasons. Anxiety disorder is caused by our behaviors, not by our biology. I believe doctors mean well when it comes to trying to find a solution to anxiety disorder, but their background and training has given them a "biological cause and effect" bias when it comes to treatment.

Many doctors are of the opinion that if there are mental health-related symptoms, a biological problem must be the cause. And, in their view, in order to eliminate the symptoms, they need to correct the biological problem. Again, their medical bias influences the process they use to treat anxiety disorder.

However, as I said, in the vast majority of cases, anxiety disorder is not caused by biological means, but by our unhealthy, learned behaviors. If your doctor referred you to a psychologist, however, your treatment most likely would be different. Psychologists have a very different training. They are not trained as doctors, and therefore, have a different approach. They believe unhealthy behaviors (thoughts and actions) CAUSE physiological problems and therefore symptoms, and not that there is a biological cause for the behavioral problem.

The fact that CBT is often recommended and has been the most successful treatment shows that unhealthy behaviors are at the root of anxiety disorder. Of course, there are certain underlying medical causes that can mimic symptoms of anxiety disorder. However, these need to be viewed as the exception, not the rule. Doctors are very helpful for those with anxiety disorder to see, as they are able to help determine if the physical symptoms you are experiencing are anxiety-related, or another underlying cause.

When I say 100% cured, I am referring to eliminating anxiety as a disorder where you are no longer experiencing the terrible physical, psychological, and emotional symptoms that come with it. Yes, even after recovery, there may be neuropathways still in our brains that can play a role in someone who has recovered to "relapse". However, if the person who recovered has learned healthy ways of behaving and responding to stressors, this should prevent the person from falling back into the anxiety disorder.

I do not want anyone to believe that there is no hope for recovering from an anxiety disorder, because that is simply not the case. You CAN overcome an anxiety disorder with the right help, information, and support!

[martin05]

When I say 100% cured, I am referring to eliminating anxiety as a disorder where you are no longer experiencing the terrible physical, psychological, and emotional symptoms that come with it. Yes, even after recovery, there may be neuropathways still in our brains that can play a role in someone who has recovered to "relapse". However, if the person who recovered has learned healthy ways of behaving and responding to stressors, this should prevent the person from falling back into the anxiety disorder.

A 100% recovery to me suggests the chances of relapse are zero. We know this isn't the case with mental illness, as even those who appear fully recovered can suffer from relapses later in life if old pathways are reactivated in response to certain stimuli. It's the reason the word "cure" is never used in medicine when it comes to mental disorders.

Anyway, nobody is saying a sufferer of anxiety cannot get better. That's nonsense. Let's take that idea off the table at once. Anxiety sufferers can get better, and even have the chance to create their own pathways using neuroplasticity, something average Joe isn't likely to bother doing.

My goal here is to dismiss the notion that there's a standard cure that will get everybody 100% better. It's harmful to those recovering. And it makes potential relapses much more painful and confusing.

Take a look at this thread, telling everybody to cut off from their support system as if there were only one way to go about tackling anxiety. It's authoritarian, unproven, and possibly dangerous. It's likely another form of the placebo effect, like Panic's use of supplements. I'm sure forcing yourself to believe you're getting better works for some, but the same effect isn't reproducible in everyone. We need to understand the limitations of the placebo effect and other behavioural modification strategies. Not everybody will respond positively to them, or be cured forever, and that doesn't mean they're lazy or don't want to get better.

There are different types of anxiety, different treatments, and different recovery prospects.

[PanicCured]

The effectiveness of the placebo is directly proportional to the amount of certainty one can project.

Your last post has given me no reason to change my judgements of you.

I do not care what you think of me. I think you are a total idiot without common sense. Do you care what I think of you? Hopefully not. Doing work to little by little work through anxiety to get better is not placebo, but go ahead with your propaganda to justify your medical school costs. Keep saying what I do is placebo and just in your style I will throw back at you, "where is your clinical double blind peer reviewed study to prove my methods are a placebo effect"? Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[PanicCured]

I am not saying this to be confrontational. But give me some proof. Give me some proof that vitamin D3 and Magnesium supplements help you recover from anxiety more quickly. Let me see a clinical study where one group of participants are given these supplements and the other a placebo over 3 months and compare.

I have actually read about these supplements. If you are deficient in Magnesium or D3 and you supplement than this can help with anxiety. However, if you are already at adequate levels, there is no evidence that taking more into your body than what your body actually needs, will help you heal faster.

What you will find is when you venture off to truly heal your body in anything, rather than using surgery or drugs, it is hard to get those billion dollar clinical trials you are seeking. If you need a doctor to approve everything before you partake in natural healing, you probably will be disappointed. It isn't like drinking chamomile tea is such a high risk people really need to care though. We know drugs do not cure anxiety permanently, so many people venture off and try and help themselves through natural means even if it is not mainstream medically accepted as the best way. If it works they report good things.

[PanicCured]

A 100% recovery to me suggests the chances of relapse are zero. We know this isn't the case with mental illness, as even those who appear fully recovered can suffer from relapses later in life if old pathways are reactivated in response to certain stimuli. It's the reason the word "cure" is never used in medicine when it comes to mental disorders.

Anyway, nobody is saying a sufferer of anxiety cannot get better. That's nonsense. Let's take that idea off the table at once. Anxiety sufferers can get better, and even have the chance to create their own pathways using neuroplasticity, something average Joe isn't likely to bother doing.

My goal here is to dismiss the notion that there's a standard cure that will get everybody 100% better. It's harmful to those recovering. And it makes potential relapses much more painful and confusing.

Take a look at this thread, telling everybody to cut off from their support system as if there were only one way to go about tackling anxiety. It's authoritarian, unproven, and possibly dangerous. It's likely another form of the placebo effect, like Panic's use of supplements. I'm sure forcing yourself to believe you're getting better works for some, but the same effect isn't reproducible in everyone. We need to understand the limitations of the placebo effect and other behavioural modification strategies. Not everybody will respond positively to them, or be cured forever, and that doesn't mean they're lazy or don't want to get better.

There are different types of anxiety, different treatments, and different recovery prospects.

But I never said cut off your support system. I said one needs to realize the safe space and safe person are illusions, and to work through the anxiety. I repeatedly say little by little and healing anxiety is a process. You probably just didn't take the time to actually read through my stuff and fully understand what I was trying to say. I explain it very well in my Techniques post above if you care.

It is all really simple and you are all over complicating everything!

"relapse" give me a break! We are talking about a fight or flight response not cancer. "Cure" is totally tongue in cheek anyway.

You don't even need to understand everything so perfectly to get better just be guided towards the right steps. I still don't even know exactly how I ended up with anxiety, I just know I got better.

[RossySoonDone]

Anxiety as a disorder can be completely cured and those suffering can attain normal, symptom and medication-free health. Often times, sufferers do not get better simply because they don't have the right information and resources to enable them to recover.

I cannot speak to the neuropathways. If there is evidence to suggest that, perhaps that is the case. It is 100% possible, however, to recover from an anxiety disorder in such a way that your bothersome symptoms that interfere with your day-to-day life disappear and are no longer problematic. As I have said previously, we cannot (and should not want to) get rid of the normal anxiety that everyone experiences from time to time to alert and prepare their bodies for genuine threats. It's anxiety disorder that can be cured. I think most on this forum are interested in getting rid of the disorder, and that can absolutely be cured 100% in time while doing the right kind of work/learning the right information.

There are hundreds, if not, thousands of people who have completely overcame anxiety as a disorder. The fact that they have recovered, such as PanicCured, is not "all in their head". I know someone who had a SEVERE anxiety disorder for over 12 years and was able to overcome it. He has been living anxiety disorder and medication-free for over 36 years now. That is not "all in his head". It is true, genuine recovery.

Most importantly, anxiety disorder is NOT an incurable mental illness that dooms those who have it to a lifetime of suffering and lower quality of life. Many believe that (as I once did), and I discovered over time that this was false. The medical community has been unsuccessful in finding a biological cure for anxiety disorder because (in the vast majority of cases) it is not caused for biological reasons. Anxiety disorder is caused by our behaviors, not by our biology. I believe doctors mean well when it comes to trying to find a solution to anxiety disorder, but their background and training has given them a "biological cause and effect" bias when it comes to treatment.

Many doctors are of the opinion that if there are mental health-related symptoms, a biological problem must be the cause. And, in their view, in order to eliminate the symptoms, they need to correct the biological problem. Again, their medical bias influences the process they use to treat anxiety disorder.

However, as I said, in the vast majority of cases, anxiety disorder is not caused by biological means, but by our unhealthy, learned behaviors. If your doctor referred you to a psychologist, however, your treatment most likely would be different. Psychologists have a very different training. They are not trained as doctors, and therefore, have a different approach. They believe unhealthy behaviors (thoughts and actions) CAUSE physiological problems and therefore symptoms, and not that there is a biological cause for the behavioral problem.

The fact that CBT is often recommended and has been the most successful treatment shows that unhealthy behaviors are at the root of anxiety disorder. Of course, there are certain underlying medical causes that can mimic symptoms of anxiety disorder. However, these need to be viewed as the exception, not the rule. Doctors are very helpful for those with anxiety disorder to see, as they are able to help determine if the physical symptoms you are experiencing are anxiety-related, or another underlying cause.

When I say 100% cured, I am referring to eliminating anxiety as a disorder where you are no longer experiencing the terrible physical, psychological, and emotional symptoms that come with it. Yes, even after recovery, there may be neuropathways still in our brains that can play a role in someone who has recovered to "relapse". However, if the person who recovered has learned healthy ways of behaving and responding to stressors, this should prevent the person from falling back into the anxiety disorder.

I do not want anyone to believe that there is no hope for recovering from an anxiety disorder, because that is simply not the case. You CAN overcome an anxiety disorder with the right help, information, and support!

*Hats off* and thanks for the post. You've helped reinforce the point I was trying to make in a more rational manner, hopefully this will hit home with more people.

[RossySoonDone]

My goal here is to dismiss the notion that there's a standard cure that will get everybody 100% better. It's harmful to those recovering. And it makes potential relapses much more painful and confusing.

A fatalistic view will keep you trapped in a cage of distorted logic and beliefs. To any passers by; you CAN be 100% cured.

[Teafrenzy]

What you will find is when you venture off to truly heal your body in anything, rather than using surgery or drugs, it is hard to get those billion dollar clinical trials you are seeking. If you need a doctor to approve everything before you partake in natural healing, you probably will be disappointed. It isn't like drinking chamomile tea is such a high risk people really need to care though. We know drugs do not cure anxiety permanently, so many people venture off and try and help themselves through natural means even if it is not mainstream medically accepted as the best way. If it works they report good things.

But it simply doesn't make sense to think that medications don't work and yet supplements do. You, yourself have acknowledged that the key to anxiety disorder are cognitive strategies. How can supplements help with cognitive strategies?

When you were recovering, you were employing both cognitive strategies and supplementation. How could you know how much of an impact supplements were having when simultaneously using another powerful recovery strategy?

Why wouldn't the manufacturers of vitamins and minerals support a clinical study to prove their products helped with anxiety - with such a big market out there?

[PanicCured]

But it simply doesn't make sense to think that medications don't work and yet supplements do. You, yourself have acknowledged that the key to anxiety disorder are cognitive strategies. How can supplements help with cognitive strategies?

When you were recovering, you were employing both cognitive strategies and supplementation. How could you know how much of an impact supplements were having when simultaneously using another powerful recovery strategy?

Why wouldn't the manufacturers of vitamins and minerals support a clinical study to prove their products helped with anxiety - with such a big market out there?

It doesn't make sense if you think supplements are doing the same things as medication but it makes sense if you understand the difference. Let's compare a Benzodiazepine to a good herbal formula for anxiety. The Benzo's action is to work on the GABA receptor sites and cause one to feel better until the drug wears off. It is a temporary fix that offers no long-term benefit. Now an herbal formula that is done correctly, can cause a calming effect too, but it also can help heal the nervous system and add nutrition active ingredients to the body. The goal is to create a result that enables you to finally stop taking it. The Chinese herb Suan Zao Ren or Zizyphus Seeds are considered not only relaxing, but strengthening too. You're supposed to get long-term results kind of like if you were weak and thin and then eat a hearty stew but on amore subtle level.
This subject is too much to type here, but at least I gave you a jumping off point to do tori own research.

I see it as supplements help bring physical nutrition to anxiety, but the mental/behavioral/habitual aspect is too deep, they can't get you all the way, you need to do the actual work. Think about it, for health you need adequate nutrition and physical exercise. That is why they are called "supplements" to supplement your anxiety recovery process.

Why they do not do the billion dollar studies for anxiety using non drug therapies? Surely a 30 second contemplation about the medical industry should answer that question.

[Teafrenzy]

It doesn't make sense if you think supplements are doing the same things as medication but it makes sense if you understand the difference. Let's compare a Benzodiazepine to a good herbal formula for anxiety. The Benzo's action is to work on the GABA receptor sites and cause one to feel better until the drug wears off. It is a temporary fix that offers no long-term benefit. Now an herbal formula that is done correctly, can cause a calming effect too, but it also can help heal the nervous system and add nutrition active ingredients to the body. The goal is to create a result that enables you to finally stop taking it. The Chinese herb Suan Zao Ren or Zizyphus Seeds are considered not only relaxing, but strengthening too. You're supposed to get long-term results kind of like if you were weak and thin and then eat a hearty stew but on amore subtle level.
This subject is too much to type here, but at least I gave you a jumping off point to do tori own research.

I see it as supplements help bring physical nutrition to anxiety, but the mental/behavioral/habitual aspect is too deep, they can't get you all the way, you need to do the actual work. Think about it, for health you need adequate nutrition and physical exercise. That is why they are called "supplements" to supplement your anxiety recovery process.

Why they do not do the billion dollar studies for anxiety using non drug therapies? Surely a 30 second contemplation about the medical industry should answer that question.

Well firstly, I think we need to clear up the idea that supplements only entail vitamins found naturally in the human body. Supplements such as Saint Johns Wort or Passionflower are plant extracts. Of course just because they are natural, does not mean they are "safe" or "effective

The idea of loading up your body with D3 or Magneisum and taking more than what your body actually needs makes no sense. If you are deficient, you are unhealthy. But you can get all of what you need from healthy diet and exercise. There's no proof taking way more than what your body needs is actually good for you or good for anxiety.

In countries with more socialized medicine, in Europe for example, they DO study the effects of natural products such as Saint Johns Wort. They do have the incentive to find cheaper alternatives to treatment. I did do extensive research on the net. There are clinical trials done in Europe and if you read them, you will generally find that these products don't produce much benefit beyond a comparable placebo. But hey, let me be clear that a placebo isn't such a bad thing. If you feel good, if you feel like a supplement will help, who cares if it is due to a placebo effect. But understand this is cognitive strategy.

[PanicCured]

Well firstly, I think we need to clear up the idea that supplements only entail vitamins found naturally in the human body. Supplements such as Saint Johns Wort or Passionflower are plant extracts. Of course just because they are natural, does not mean they are "safe" or "effective

The idea of loading up your body with D3 or Magneisum and taking more than what your body actually needs makes no sense. If you are deficient, you are unhealthy. But you can get all of what you need from healthy diet and exercise. There's no proof taking way more than what your body needs is actually good for you or good for anxiety.

In countries with more socialized medicine, in Europe for example, they DO study the effects of natural products such as Saint Johns Wort. They do have the incentive to find cheaper alternatives to treatment. I did do extensive research on the net. There are clinical trials done in Europe and if you read them, you will generally find that these products don't produce much benefit beyond a comparable placebo. But hey, let me be clear that a placebo isn't such a bad thing. If you feel good, if you feel like a supplement will help, who cares if it is due to a placebo effect. But understand this is cognitive strategy.

I have heard this same schtick before. Vitamins and minerals only work if you are deficient, herbs don't hold up in clinical trials, there is no proof...blah blah blah! Total BS! Go take a strong B vitamin complex and watch how jittery it will make you feel. Take a strong Magnesium and watch how you fall asleep.

There are studies, they just may not make it to CNN or your Facebook feed, such as a great study done by MDs showing that the symptoms in the brain of Autism are similar to symptoms of Vitamin D deficiency and by supplementing with D3 they were able to reduce symptoms of Autism.

You assume all medical tests have perfect numbers and everyone is getting the perfect amount fro vitamins and minerals in their body, and in an ill state you wouldn't need more than someone in perfect health. The Vitamin D requirements set is to prevent rickets and is set way too low and other than supplements and the sun, you are not getting Vitamin D.

Look, if you have some way that gets you totally free of an anxiety disorder that has nothing to do with anything I ever wrote here, than by all means, keep it up! If you found something that totally works than please post it here for others to see so they can get better too. If you are not better, than maybe you should open your mind and try something new. All these people declaring medical science is the only way yet never get better, so what is the point? Whatever works!

[Teafrenzy]

I never said medical science was perfect. I am not in favor of using drugs to solve anxiety. At least not drugs alone which is what most doctors and psychiatrists use to solve it.

I believe CBT is the way to go. CBT practiced over a very long period of time (passive acceptance, containment, positive thinking, exposure therapy for phobias), combined with good physical strategies - lots of water, no caffeine or alcohol, healthy eating and exercise.

When you were recovering you were using CBT and supplements. You think the supplements is what made the difference, I say it was the CBT. The supplements may have helped a little..but that could be due to the placebo effect (more CBT related than physical).

[PanicCured]

I never said medical science was perfect. I am not in favor of using drugs to solve anxiety. At least not drugs alone which is what most doctors and psychiatrists use to solve it.

I believe CBT is the way to go. CBT practiced over a very long period of time (passive acceptance, containment, positive thinking, exposure therapy for phobias), combined with good physical strategies - lots of water, no caffeine or alcohol, healthy eating and exercise.

When you were recovering you were using CBT and supplements. You think the supplements is what made the difference, I say it was the CBT. The supplements may have helped a little..but that could be due to the placebo effect (more CBT related than physical).

I now believe many people misunderstand me and my Techniques post above. That post is about my personal journey to recovery. I didn't expect everyone to do everything I did. I wrote it from the perspective of this is what I did, make what you can of it, use it as a guide to make your own healing plan. It worked! I repeat over and over again, the core treatment is behavioral and habitual changes you do. I have never once ever said supplements is the main treatment. Never once! But the right supplements can add the physically needed healing to your body. In some cases, supplements may be much more important. For example, some people are extremely Vitamin D deficient.

But you are judging that the registered daily allowances are perfect and that an ill person needs the same amount as a healthy person. Vitamin D as an example, which daily allowances is simply to prevent rickets, since we now know what we didn't know then, it is a hormone used throughout the brain and body.

I do not really know what CBT is. I know it is about changing behaviors but I never did it. I assume some of the stuff I did is related to it, but I did not do what is referred to as CBT.

If you can go from panic attacks 10 times a day and unable to walk outside your home without popping Klonopins to being totally panic attack free and not needing any treatment at all anymore by whatever method you are doing, than by all means, post it here so others can use it too. You can keep repeating placebo all you want, the truth is I got better and others who have used many of my ideas got better too.

[martin05]

If you can go from panic attacks 10 times a day and unable to walk outside your home without popping Klonopins to being totally panic attack free and not needing any treatment at all anymore by whatever method you are doing, than by all means, post it here so others can use it too. You can keep repeating placebo all you want, the truth is I got better and others who have used many of my ideas got better too.

There's nothing wrong with the placebo effect. Even doctors and supplement companies try to make use of it by making their pills certain sizes and certain colors. Therapy also relies on the placebo effect to a degree. If somebody believes their treatment is working, not only do their behaviors begin to change as a result, but the physical make up of their body can also change too. Both stress and pain have been shown to reduce in relation to belief in a placebo. It really is miraculous. If I take any medicine, I try to maximize any possible placebo effect I may experience. Why not take free healing?

We're not trying to offend you when we say that some of your techniques, like supplements, probably rely heavily (if not entirely) on placebo. We're just saying that the evidence isn't really there in support of many of them, and the placebo effect was probably much more to blame for your feelings of calm than the extracts of some flower you took (which unlikely passed through the blood-brain barrier). Which isn't bad, at all. You're lucky to find something that worked, but we need to try and be realistic about what happened.

It's important to separate subjective experience and actual biological change. If such techniques like supplementation worked and the results could be replicated over and over, the medical industry as a whole would have caught on. In socialized countries, as teafrenzy says, anti-depressant use costs a lot of money in pill production and doctor time, and this is all paid for by the government.

[gypsylee]

PC - How can you be sure that the anxiety won't come back if something awful happens in your life?

[PanicCured]

There's nothing wrong with the placebo effect. Even doctors and supplement companies try to make use of it by making their pills certain sizes and certain colors. Therapy also relies on the placebo effect to a degree. If somebody believes their treatment is working, not only do their behaviors begin to change as a result, but the physical make up of their body can also change too. Both stress and pain have been shown to reduce in relation to belief in a placebo. It really is miraculous. If I take any medicine, I try to maximize any possible placebo effect I may experience. Why not take free healing?

We're not trying to offend you when we say that some of your techniques, like supplements, probably rely heavily (if not entirely) on placebo. We're just saying that the evidence isn't really there in support of many of them, and the placebo effect was probably much more to blame for your feelings of calm than the extracts of some flower you took (which unlikely passed through the blood-brain barrier). Which isn't bad, at all. You're lucky to find something that worked, but we need to try and be realistic about what happened.

It's important to separate subjective experience and actual biological change. If such techniques like supplementation worked and the results could be replicated over and over, the medical industry as a whole would have caught on. In socialized countries, as teafrenzy says, anti-depressant use costs a lot of money in pill production and doctor time, and this is all paid for by the government.

I am not offended, it just simply is not true and belittles the work people need to do to get better. It actually is just another obstacle that is what the OP is talking about here. There is plenty of evidence many herbs and supplements have an effect so your "there is no evidence" rhetoric is nonsense. There is no evidence medication gets people free of anxiety permanently either. Show me the evidence if I am wrong. I would love to see it.

But I never said I just popped some natural pills and got better. I explain over and over again the actual hard work I did and encourage others to do the work as well. "The work" is not a placebo, it is action.

Spare me the medical industry super heroes wonderful people who only care for the good of humanity would adopt it if it really worked. I love that, "The Medical Industry" like they are some all knowing gods or something. How much money you think they would make from chamomile tea, Magnesium, and breathing exercises? How much money is in relaxing and allowing anxiety to pass over you? I bought a year supply of high quality Vitamin D3 for under $10.

I love all the criticism yet do not post your own peer reviewed fully proven methods.

[PanicCured]

PC - How can you be sure that the anxiety won't come back if something awful happens in your life?


It surely can. But who cares? I would just go through the steps again. I could totally wreck my body and do all sots of stuff to create the perfect backdrop for anxiety to grow. Then I would just do what I did before, but much more focused this time and get better quicker. It's like if you were very fat and lost weight and got fit and then asked what if you get really fat again? "Cured" is not really so literal and it's kind of tongue and cheek. I mean, I could probably smoke like 10 huge bong loads of crazy keefer hash oil laced weed and maybe launch into a total panic attack. But so what? I could hyperventilate for weeks and offset my CO2/O2 balance if I wanted.

[martin05]

I love all the criticism yet do not post your own peer reviewed fully proven methods.

You're the one encouraging people to spend money on supplements. The onus is on you to prove they're effective. After all, in your supplement thread, you make pretty extreme claims.


I wanted to make a list of supplements that I feel anyone and everyone having anxiety or panic disorder should be taking.

And I don't believe drugs are the best method for treating anxiety, which is why I didn't make a big thread recommending them. I also don't believe the pills you recommend in your thread have any benefit unless one is deficient or experiences the placebo effect. At least you're now beginning to admit this yourself.

[gypsylee]

I mean, I could probably smoke like 10 huge bong loads of crazy keefer hash oil laced weed and maybe launch into a total panic attack.

Do it and put it on YouTube! LOL.

[PanicCured]

You're the one encouraging people to spend money on supplements. The onus is on you to prove they're effective. After all, in your supplement thread, you make pretty extreme claims.

I was not aware my job was to convince oh Holy Martin and show you how to use Google.


And I don't believe drugs are the best method for treating anxiety, which is why I didn't make a big thread recommending them. I also don't believe the pills you recommend in your thread have any benefit unless one is deficient or experiences the placebo effect. At least you're now beginning to admit this yourself.

I never admitted that because it is not true. I am glad to hear that you don't believe in anything! "Supplements only work if one is deficient" is not only a total fallacy that you keep repeating as dogma, but you are assuming you know exactly what the "deficient" level is and that one in an ill state such as an anxiety disorder needs the same amount as one in a healthy state. You also are ignoring thousands of years of herbal medicine history and decades of scientific evaluations of these herbs.

Again I repeat, supplements supplement the anxiety healing process.

[RoadToRecovery]

A 100% recovery to me suggests the chances of relapse are zero. We know this isn't the case with mental illness, as even those who appear fully recovered can suffer from relapses later in life if old pathways are reactivated in response to certain stimuli. It's the reason the word "cure" is never used in medicine when it comes to mental disorders.

Anyway, nobody is saying a sufferer of anxiety cannot get better. That's nonsense. Let's take that idea off the table at once. Anxiety sufferers can get better, and even have the chance to create their own pathways using neuroplasticity, something average Joe isn't likely to bother doing.

My goal here is to dismiss the notion that there's a standard cure that will get everybody 100% better. It's harmful to those recovering. And it makes potential relapses much more painful and confusing.

Take a look at this thread, telling everybody to cut off from their support system as if there were only one way to go about tackling anxiety. It's authoritarian, unproven, and possibly dangerous. It's likely another form of the placebo effect, like Panic's use of supplements. I'm sure forcing yourself to believe you're getting better works for some, but the same effect isn't reproducible in everyone. We need to understand the limitations of the placebo effect and other behavioural modification strategies. Not everybody will respond positively to them, or be cured forever, and that doesn't mean they're lazy or don't want to get better.

There are different types of anxiety, different treatments, and different recovery prospects.

I think maybe I have misled you - I was not suggesting that there is a 0% chance of relapse. Since anxiety disorder is caused by our unhealthy behaviors, not our biology, people can absolutely relapse if someone who has recovered goes back into a trend of unhealthy thinking patterns. I hear this quite often on these message boards. Someone will state they had recovered and not had any problems with anxiety for years, however they are back into a fully blown anxiety disorder. This is usually due to something traumatic that's occurred in their life (death of a loved one, illness, tragedy, etc).

Is it possible to relapse after recovering from an anxiety disorder? Yes. Is it possible to recover from an anxiety disorder and never experience the terrible physical, psychological, and emotional symptoms that are caused by the disorder? Yes. My point is to emphasize that it is entirely possible to overcome the disorder and never relapse again. It is entirely possible to return to return to normal, medication-free health.

I am completely against suggesting that someone suffering from an anxiety disorder cut themselves off from their support system. I have people on this site that I talk to that have been very helpful while I've been working through my recovery. Being able to talk to others about your problems with someone who understands them as well can bring a great deal of comfort and ease worries/fears/tension. It can be a great help in the recovery process. On the same token, I think people need to exercise caution with those they speak to on these forums as well. Not all of their advice is helpful, and some is even hurtful. Some people know more about anxiety disorders than others, and there is a great deal of misinformation that circulates on the internet.

Anxiety disorder is not some sort of disease that you catch and never get rid of. Certainly, some very serious mental illnesses are caused by biological problems with the brain, such as schizophrenia, fetal alcohol syndrome, and brain injury, in which the medical approach to mental illness is appropriate. But the vast majority of anxiety and depression conditions AREN’T caused by a biological problem, but instead by our unhealthy ways of thinking. Therefore, a medical approach to these conditions, in my opinion, has been not only inappropriate but in many cases harmful.

Please correct me if I am wrong Martin; I do not want to put words into your mouth. But it seems to me from the tone of your posts that you believe a person cannot fully recover from an anxiety disorder and return to 100% health with never experiencing the disorder again. The comment you made above where you were talking about PanicCured and stated " I'm sure forcing yourself to believe you're getting better works for some..." leads me to believe that you think it's just all in his head that he's better. I truly believe that he has gotten better, as he is no longer experiencing the horrible symptoms and hasn't for quite awhile. I also believe it is possible for him to relapse. However, if he has truly learned healthy ways of thinking and behaving, he will be able to deal with life's challenges and hurts in a healthy way, which will make it less likely for him to fall back into the disorder again.

[PanicCured]

I think maybe I have misled you - I was not suggesting that there is a 0% chance of relapse. Since anxiety disorder is caused by our unhealthy behaviors, not our biology, people can absolutely relapse if someone who has recovered goes back into a trend of unhealthy thinking patterns. I hear this quite often on these message boards. Someone will state they had recovered and not had any problems with anxiety for years, however they are back into a fully blown anxiety disorder. This is usually due to something traumatic that's occurred in their life (death of a loved one, illness, tragedy, etc).

Is it possible to relapse after recovering from an anxiety disorder? Yes. Is it possible to recover from an anxiety disorder and never experience the terrible physical, psychological, and emotional symptoms that are caused by the disorder? Yes. My point is to emphasize that it is entirely possible to overcome the disorder and never relapse again. It is entirely possible to return to return to normal, medication-free health.

I am completely against suggesting that someone suffering from an anxiety disorder cut themselves off from their support system. I have people on this site that I talk to that have been very helpful while I've been working through my recovery. Being able to talk to others about your problems with someone who understands them as well can bring a great deal of comfort and ease worries/fears/tension. It can be a great help in the recovery process. On the same token, I think people need to exercise caution with those they speak to on these forums as well. Not all of their advice is helpful, and some is even hurtful. Some people know more about anxiety disorders than others, and there is a great deal of misinformation that circulates on the internet.

Anxiety disorder is not some sort of disease that you catch and never get rid of. Certainly, some very serious mental illnesses are caused by biological problems with the brain, such as schizophrenia, fetal alcohol syndrome, and brain injury, in which the medical approach to mental illness is appropriate. But the vast majority of anxiety and depression conditions AREN’T caused by a biological problem, but instead by our unhealthy ways of thinking. Therefore, a medical approach to these conditions, in my opinion, has been not only inappropriate but in many cases harmful.

Please correct me if I am wrong Martin; I do not want to put words into your mouth. But it seems to me from the tone of your posts that you believe a person cannot fully recover from an anxiety disorder and return to 100% health with never experiencing the disorder again. The comment you made above where you were talking about PanicCured and stated " I'm sure forcing yourself to believe you're getting better works for some..." leads me to believe that you think it's just all in his head that he's better. I truly believe that he has gotten better, as he is no longer experiencing the horrible symptoms and hasn't for quite awhile. I also believe it is possible for him to relapse. However, if he has truly learned healthy ways of thinking and behaving, he will be able to deal with life's challenges and hurts in a healthy way, which will make it less likely for him to fall back into the disorder again.

Yeah I love these phrases like "relapse". You have anxiety, you get better. If you get anxiety again, just get better again. Man, the things people focus on here baffles me. They overcomplicate everything.

Someone's girlfriend breaks their heart, they feel sad and then get over it. So if 5 years later this happens with a different girl do they relapse? I mean like seriously, what drama queens!

I love how Martin thinks I fooled myself into getting better so it worked. I mean, if that was the case, that would be brilliant! I could write book on how to fool yourself into having no more anxiety and I would make millions of dollars. Imagine if I had that power over the mind?

It is important to get a medical evaluation just so one can see if it is a biological problem or just anxiety, but once anxiety is fully diagnosed, what long-term cures does a doctor have to offer? If there is one, please someone here let me know. I assume CBT is what a therapist does, right? Not an MD?

So how did you get so smart? You seem to really get it!