I would be an awesome person, if...

[lareth]

I would be fucking awesome, If I still believed in free will.

I would have confidence, I would be outgoing, I would be happy, I would be loving and caring, I would move and exercise, I would restore my family relations, and I would generally be acceptive of life and be braver than I ever thought was even possible without faking it.

As I'm writing this, I pretend I have free will, and it feels awesome. I have no problems, I have no sadness or anxiety, and no fear of insanity. I want to eat well and I want to make myself a better person, loving person, who isn't afraid of his imperfections. But, alas, I know that at some point, my mind being as it is, it will catch up to me, and I will maybe have another breakdown. The pain is unreal, when I realize I'm not in control. It gives me the feeling that I'm slipping into a psychosis I will never ever come back from, and the feeling that I might have good moments in all this shit just doesn't cut it.

After my breakdown 3 years ago, I lived an awesome life sort of, in a way that I did a lot of things and met a lot of people, I was all in all happy, and even when i was sad, I knew why and I decided it was ok to be sad. It was my decision.

But it's all been taken away from me by this seemingly philosophical fact, and I can't find any way to form any other way of thinking about it in my head, that I would accept, that I would feel comfortable with for the rest of my days. And I wouldn't mind a certain amount of sadness from this issue. The fact is, that the way I am right now, I am relatively afraid to even leave the house, because I can never know when I might have a fit of slipping away into the void, or at the very least, having a panic attack. I lost a good relationship because of this, because I was afraid to go and see her in another country. I hurt her a lot, because there was no way to explain all this to her, and I hurt myself in the process. She will get over it. I will and have gotten over losing her, but I feel I can't get over this, and thus I am fucked.

I'm trying to tell myself all kinds of things to keep me going. I tell myself, that it's a tough break, but life is free and I should live it. But it doesn't help always. I tell myself, that "I" am the rational part of my brain, that self determination is enough, but it isn't a permanent solution. I tell myself that free will as a concept is illogical, that I expect too much from life, that what we have is near perfect, because we have the ability to be logical, go through options, choose the best one, but that doesn't help permanently. I try to tell myself, that I shouldn't take things so seriously. But again, when it gets bad, none of this will really feel as a permanent solution to my problem, but ways to fool myself. Some of these things gets me really close to perfect, i.e the self determination, and the concept of free will being a bit of a dilemma.

I have tried picturing my problem in different ways that would give me some sort of mental stability. But alas, I have been unable to do so. And the more I fight it, the more tired I get, and the more tired I get, the more I will be heading towards suicide, or permanent placement inside an asylum.

I have tried to exist in a way where I have no free will. I have tried it, and it sort of works a part of the time, when for some reason or another I don't feel as bad. It makes me apathetic, it makes me cynical even, it makes me into something I do not wish to be. It also seems impossible for me to uphold. On monday, I felt really really really bad, almost as bad as three years ago, right before my hospitalization. I took a pill for it, and it helped, but I understand I can't really be living this life as "free" as I would want to, if I have to keep eating addictive drugs to keep me going, because then I fear, that the breakdown will be even worse, if this problem ever manages to seep through the haze of the drugs. As soon as I started exercising, I got strength, and I ended up feeling the way I feel now, because for a moment I think I became strong enough to start feeling in control again. But to me, this only means, that another break is coming.

I have studied philosophy, firstly because I am really good at it, but now solely to find answers to this problem, but everything anyone has ever said, seems weak, and illogical, they seem like the kind of things I cannot accept, because they do not fit in with reality. The only exception being the self determination thing, and that I really need to perfect somehow, as my only life line and hope, for any chance of a better future for me. And by better I mean, living outside of a hospital.

As you surely can see, this is no minor issue, this is a breaking issue. This thing has ruined my fucking life. I imagine, if I could go back, and stop myself from reading philosophy, would I do it, or maybe this problem has always been present inside me, subconsciously, and reading philosophy just gave me the words to describe it. But I don't know what it could've been to stop me from learning. And here I am, unafraid of death, not wanting to die, everything is awesome in a way, I have settled the score with the universe on each and every other count, except this one. I've worked hard, but as the problem inheres, that doesn't feel like anything when I fall back to my regular stance of not pretending to be in control, because things happen and that's it. When I laugh, I am reminded of this problem, when I see animals move around I see this problem, EVERYTHING in the fucking universe reminds me of this issue, so it's not something I can just bury down inside me and forget, like i saw a murder I can't bare to remember. Anything that ever happens reminds me of this, and I am constantly bombarded by this fact, and it is messing me up big time.

I don't really want advice right now, I don't want to sound too arrogant, but I figure I've heard it all before, and nothing has been convincing, and I've seen the fault in all the counter arguments. Except, again, possibly the self determinism argument.

This is about me finding out a way to live with this, that doesn't destroy me. There are things worse than death, and that, for me, is losing my whole identity, myself, and actually admitting, that this world got the best of me completely, and life is actually nothing but torture, when you think about it, and if you tell people on this planet not to think about some things, for me that equals the same as intellect being absolutely pointless when it comes down to the facts, and that life in itself is nothing but mental torture, and that we should all die, every one of us, or at the very least, that if we all died, it wouldn't matter one singe fucking bit. And I'm not talking about some external purpose, I mean, just being happy, AND honest to oneself, would not be enough anymore.

I am in a new relationship now, after being alone and loving it for a really long time, and I would just love to be happy, alone or with someone preferably of course, there are no problems in this life other than this, and this one problem breaks my entire life. I am running out of steam now, this is as far as I can pretend to be in control. Now I don't know what will happen. This problem is making my sanity fight for every single breath I take, and single second I am alive, and no one can live like that. No one. I'm tired, I would love to rest my mind on something solid, because otherwise I will die soon, and I have to leave behind a son, whose father committed suicide, not because life was hard, I don't give a shit, but because life is so absurd, that you need to be stupid or intellectually dishonest with yourself in order to survive, and I need to wish he never becomes like me, though he has already caught the love of philosophy at age 10, and thus I see little hope for him either.

Fuck. I am fucked. Am I fucked?

[gypsylee]

Well I ploughed my way through that whole post! I don't really know what to say to you, but it was interesting. Maybe read something like Carl Jung? He helped my anxiety a lot, about 15 years ago when I first had it. Jung actually drove himself mad I think, and he brought himself out of it. Something like that.

[sae]

Let me start by saying I LOVE your writing style! I have a fondness for philosphy as well so i found it quite easily relatable.

I have no advice to offer (as I have noted your wish to have none) nor will I lambaste you with "it does get better" platitudes. Instead I will do what I do best, because I am insufferable narcissist, and share my personal philosophies and anecdotal ramblings.

I think at least in some way, anxiety is nothing more than a series of maladaptive behaviors centered around stressors and triggers. Take for instance the dog that refuses to stay in the backyard. Outside of the fence is dangerous, dog catcher, busy highway, other dogs, but it is hell - bent on getting out. The owner puts the dog on a stake, it chews through. The owner puts up a fence, it digs under the fence. Finally one day the dog is lost never to be seen again. The owner, instead of blaming the dog blames himself for not taking better care of it.
I like the think of my mental/emotional state as that stupid dog. Logically I create maladaptive coping skills like shutting myself in or avoiding anxiety inducing triggers. I am not training myself to stay in the fence, instead I am just clipping on a chain and building a higher fence.
In a way we're all a little fucked (although i consider it more life's half-assed lazy foreplay). Life happens and we're not promised tomorrow.
That's all the stuff I have.

[NixonRulz]

You may think you have heard it all before and not want advice

But when IS gets a hold of this post, he'll have you anylized in no time at all and have you figured out

[gypsylee]

You may think you have heard it all before and not want advice

But when IS gets a hold of this post, he'll have you anylized in no time at all and have you figured out

You know I felt like alerting Im-S to this LOL

[anberry]

Most of the concepts of free will are philosophically naive. I struggled with the idea of hard determinism in high school and wondered how the heck anything we could do was in any sense "free." Actually made me turn to the concept of spirituality and the soul for consolation that perhaps at our core we are immaterial beings unconstrained by the laws of nature. However, taking a philosophy course made me realize that holding to indeterminism doesn't solve the problem because its pretty much synonymous with randomness.

But if you have a kind of reductionistic way of looking at things, then the "you" is not really some being who wants to be something or achieve something but is constrained by his lack of free will that prevents him achieving this. We are free to act in accordance with our will (which may be predetermined), which is pretty much the freedom that matters in my opinion.

Plus the natural world is full of mystery. Some people point to quantum mechanics to show that things aren't determined ahead of time. Perhaps there is a way to reconcile what we've learned through science and what we can extrapolate through philosophy with a meaningful concept of free will. Maybe I'm naively hopeful, but studies have shown that basically it is healthy to believe in free will (believers tend to be happier, more determined, and engage in less actions commonly thought to be immoral).

I find that too much armchair thinking can lead to faulty conclusions, and make you feel like conclusions like "there is no such thing as free will" are more airtight than they really are.

[Helplessand23]

Well I ploughed my way through that whole post! I don't really know what to say to you, but it was interesting. Maybe read something like Carl Jung? He helped my anxiety a lot, about 15 years ago when I first had it. Jung actually drove himself mad I think, and he brought himself out of it. Something like that.

What what what? May i ask the name of the book.. how did he drive himself mad?

[jessed03]

The mind can be a wonderful thing when it's used by a person. When the mind starts using a person however, as its vessel for contemplation, it leads to nothing but misery. Man wasn't built to be a slave, be it at the hands of another man, or his mind.

[Adi RootZ]

The mind can be a wonderful thing when it's used by a person. When the mind starts using a person however, as its vessel for contemplation, it leads to nothing but misery. Man wasn't built to be a slave, be it at the hands of another man, or his mind.

so true, that last bit sounds poetic

[Im-Suffering]

I cannot do anything for this person here. I've already responded once in another of his threads. He is unfortunately too unwieldy. I am available on PM if he wishes.

These thoughts in the OP are cumbersome, badly organized and unmanageable. With such a scattered destructive haphazard mental landscape intense CBT or an otherwise showing of (great) love from a teacher (peer) that could penetrate this rigid thought process is needed. And heal this disillusioned soul.

I pray for him and hold his best interests even if he himself doesn't. Life is valuable, but he must see that himself. That he is a part of life, he is valuable too. That is his lesson.

A _period_part. Not apart.

Inherently ~ valuable.

With a unique purpose.

I'm available for PM.

[gypsylee]

What what what? May i ask the name of the book.. how did he drive himself mad?

Oh there are lots of books by and on Carl Jung. I might even be making it up that he drove himself mad lol, but something like that. I shall Google..

Here we go:

"Carl Jung was one of Freud's earliest supporters and in many respects rivaled him in terms of influence. Some of their interactions provide the basis for the story behind the book and recent movie - A Dangerous Method. Just as Freud did, he famously analyzed himself and while doing so apparently became psychotic. His psychosis was however seen as a way to sanity - a forerunner of 1960s thinking about psychosis. It was also viewed in semi-spiritual terms." http://www.madinamerica.com/2012/10/the-madness-of-carl-jung-a-dangerous-method/

[jessed03]

Oh there are lots of books by and on Carl Jung. I might even be making it up that he drove himself mad lol, but something like that. I shall Google..

Here we go:

"Carl Jung was one of Freud's earliest supporters and in many respects rivaled him in terms of influence. Some of their interactions provide the basis for the story behind the book and recent movie - A Dangerous Method. Just as Freud did, he famously analyzed himself and while doing so apparently became psychotic. His psychosis was however seen as a way to sanity - a forerunner of 1960s thinking about psychosis. It was also viewed in semi-spiritual terms." http://www.madinamerica.com/2012/10/the-madness-of-carl-jung-a-dangerous-method/

He did go pretty nuts.

It's long been known though that most psychoanalysts are crazier than their patients. :)

[gypsylee]

Yeah Jung was fucking awesome though. He helped with my anxiety in the early stages because I realised there's a lot more to the mind than the conscious part and that stopped me feeling like I was driving MYSELF nuts. I know Freud talked about that as well but Jung was much cooler :)

[Im-Suffering]

They were scientifically inclined. (mental scientists if you will). They wanted to find an overall cure for mental imbalances. At the time it was fashionable to simply remove a piece of the brain or electrocute. So there had to be a better way.

Think of it like a flu shot. You inject the actual bacteria into your body in hopes of the systems learning how to defend themselves. The same was true of their 'mental-science' experiments, using that model they would need to go insane temporarily to fight off the mental issues hopefully coming out of it cured. (With insights and understanding).

Which is what the OP is trying to do, quite unwittingly.

Finding ones way back to 'sanity' could be indeed difficult.

[gypsylee]

Jung was actually known as a mystic and wasn't respected by a lot of people because of it.

[jessed03]

Jung was actually known as a mystic and wasn't respected by a lot of people because of it.

Kind of funny to think him and Freud were enemies. Can't really imagine a battle of the psychs.

[Im-Suffering]

You guys have read Cayce?

[gypsylee]

You guys have read Cayce?

A little. He's a bit TOO mystical for my liking :)

[jessed03]

I haven't actually. I've heard of him though. He was the guy who thought there were originally 5 colours of people on earth, right?

[Im-Suffering]

*smiles* :)

Dunno about 5 color thing. Love the way he would read bodies (diagnosis illness) and past life regressions.

[jessed03]

*smiles* :)

Dunno about 5 color thing. Love the way he would read bodies (diagnosis illness) and past life regressions.

I've just been reading more about him on Wiki. That does seem quite cool. Seems an interesting guy.

Suf - how frequently do you really get into contact with your unconscious mind?

[Im-Suffering]

Stuff is bouncing back and forth all the time. It's not ego (me Marc) that contacts sub or unconscious, it's more of just listening or a two way street. Subconscious is always the healing voice.

Or superconscious.

[Im-Suffering]

You really clicked with me and spoke right through me a few weeks ago. That conversation was deeper. My knee jerk reaction told me I need to reflect, and I did.

I've been meaning to say thank you.

[jessed03]

Any time. My English teacher always told me I was a bouncer. Worked poorly on my own, better when I bounced ideas off of others.

I was reading that Cayce would lie down then go completely into his unconscious. That's how he'd get a lot of his gold. I'd love to do that, see if anything awesome pops up.

[gypsylee]

I have a warm fuzzy feeling now ;)

[lareth]

Will I ever regain at least some part of myself back?

[gypsylee]

Will I ever regain at least some part of myself back?

Yes :) .........

[jessed03]

Will I ever regain at least some part of myself back?

Yes, if you stop digging. Contemplation should be something that brings wonder into your life, not depression. Anything that's bringing depression, whether it be religion, love, over-thinking or alcohol isn't worth it.

Get out of your mind, go sit next to a pretty girl and enjoy the feeling of the sun on your back. It won't cure you, but it'll be a start.

[gypsylee]

Get out of your mind, go sit next to a pretty girl and enjoy the feeling of the sun on your back. It won't cure you, but it'll be a start.

Don't encourage him to take drugs! ;)

[NixonRulz]

Don't encourage him to take drugs! ;)

I don't think he was encouraging him to do drugs

More like encouraging him to score with random girls

Either way, both will cause a high

[gypsylee]

I don't think he was encouraging him to do drugs

More like encouraging him to score with random girls

Either way, both will cause a high

He's encouraging him to take drugs AND score with random girls. This might be the best advice ever given on the forum haha.

[sae]

He's encouraging him to take drugs AND score with random girls. This might be the best advice ever given on the forum haha.

I say the best advice ever given anywhere.. no one ever encouraged me to score with random girls... except for the one chick I met in a bar. She was scary and had a mullet (true story, unfortunately).

[gypsylee]

Mullets are hot lol.

[sae]

It was all business in the front and party in the back... but something about her toothless grin and stale beer breath just told me that the business in the front was ... well.. a front for her party in the back.