Girlfriend has anxiety. Too long on any topic causes her anxiety...

[Kurt von Humboldt]

I'm dating someone who suffers from pretty severe anxiety and I've started to notice that it seems like I'm causing her anxiety with my conversational style. I often like to get really "deep on a topic". I've been accused of "kicking the dead horse" by people in the past. I really enjoy talking for a long time about serious topics, especially matters which are close to the heart. This seems to really cause anxiety for my girlfriend. If I keep the conversation light and don't stay on a topic for too long, especially anything serious in nature, she seems to be fine. But if the conversation becomes serious or dwells on one topic for too long it seems to trigger an anxiety attack. Is this a fairly common thing? I'm still learning how to interact with her in a way that keeps her feeling upbeat and positive. Does this mean I'm going to have to completely retrain my way of conversing? I'm a deep and thoughtful person, and honestly the idea of always keeping conversation light and not lingering on any topic seems daunting. Thoughts?

[sae]

I'm female and spastic... I can't speak for your gf but I might offer some decent ideas.

Idea 1: Try a conversation with not so deep questions about her. A good one to start with is usually music or movies, whichever she is more interested in. Lead her into answering questions and let her talk. Chances are before long she won't be able to shut up.

Idea 2: Try delegating your deepest conversations in text form. For me sometimes I have a hard time saying out loud my thoughts or feelings on a particular subject. Sae does not fare well with any spoken sentence that starts with "I feel...". If I am relaying my thoughts through text I am a bit more free in my response. I constantly worry about saying the wrong thing. At least with text I can read it back, change it, add or omit before sending it off.

Idea C: Give it time and have fun. Maybe you two just haven't reached that point of being completely comfortable in conversation yet. It has taken me nearly a year to open up and converse openly with the boyfriend. Now I just blurt out any old thing in this twisted brain of mine and we really do have some of the deepest conversations, silly ideas, genius moments and most fun political debates. It took us a little while to get there, but we are both glad for the effort.

Sometimes you just have to let someone be anxious. Anxiety is a deeply personal battle with shit tons of guilt and shame mixed in to sweeten the pot. If you are anxious about her anxiety she will undoubtedly be anxious. Anxiety begets anxiety. Just don't give up. We spastic sorts spend a lot of time in our own heads I think, and it's a veritable secret garden of conversation.

[Im-Suffering]

Adding some if I may to the brilliant advice given by sae :




I'm a deep and thoughtful person, and honestly the idea of always keeping conversation light and not lingering on any topic seems daunting. - And for good reason.

Thoughts?

Turn the focus to yourself, period.

Any relationship, now, or the future, will point out certain things in yourself that you need to look at. Relationships with other people are meant to point you in the direction of healing every false idea about yourself youve ever had. They do this by mirroring back at you your own beliefs and projections. The good, and the bad.

Now, ultimately you need to be true to self. Getting there, finding the real self, takes adjustments and real world feedback, such as what you are now receiving (from the GF).

If your 'deep and thoughtful' conversations have a negative spin, or tone, meaning what is wrong in life as opposed to concentration on what is right, you see, this type of mental barrage can be exhaustive. She is not as 'surface' as you think. There is depth there.

Take everything I have said to you and reread it until you understand the message completely, and then examine yourself for beliefs you may have that can cause both you and another anxiety. Then make the adjustments as discussed.

You learn through feedback, and then assessing thought/action/spoken words as being either constructive, or destructive, as you live your life.

Its not about her, or anyone else.

[Kurt von Humboldt]

Thank you both for your replies. I certainly get what you're saying about focusing on my own process rather than hers. I didn't mean to imply that she is surface or not deep, in fact she is an extremely deep, thoughtful and intelligent person. I guess what I meant rather is that when I steer the conversation for too long onto serious topics it seems to be a trigger for her anxiety. But I certainly get what you're saying about trying to focus on my own behavior. I've always found myself a bit bored by people who tend to hover around the surface avoiding serious topics. But conversely those same people tend to find me incredibly boring. I myself enjoy digging into long talks about anything from politics to quantum physics. And it isn't so much that she doesn't enjoy those things as well, but more that when I blather on about something for too long she seems to get anxious. By contrast I have one friend who I often engage in hours of conversation about strange and esoteric theories. We've been known to clear the room on many occasions when we get into a long talk about philosophy or spirituality. However I've found that most people are far more interested in keeping conversation light and bouncing the topics around before they get worn out. I've always wanted to learn to be better at light, fun conversation but I continually find myself drifting toward the deep end on even the most trivial of topics. Example:

Guy next to me : "Did you see that amazing catch! This games a real nailbiter!"
Me : "Have you ever noticed that sports are filling the void in peoples life created by a lack of spirituality?"

The odd thing is my girlfriend see's the world the same way that I do, and she is extremely passionate and intelligent in her views, but I have a hard time conversing with her about any of our deeper thoughts or experiences for more than about 60 seconds before I can see it building up in her like a ticking bomb of anxiety and stress. I really want to be a less serious person not just for her but also so I can get along better with "normal people" but the bottom line is I've always been the guy in the corner of the bar quietly discussing the merits of existentialism with a complete stranger for hours at a time, not the light-hearted guy who cracks jokes and keeps the conversation bouncing. I fear this might become a serious death blow to our relationship if I can't learn to completely change who I am. About 80% of people find me incredibly boring. The other 20% are themselves boring scholarly types who find me engaging... What can I do? We love each other dearly and I will do anything in my power not to trigger her anxiety, but it's really difficult for me. Look how I've already pounded this topic into the ground. Just reading this would give her an anxiety attack.

[Im-Suffering]

Lets take a look at some of your beliefs about who you are Kurt (and who you wish to be). I have broken it down below for clarity. Each line can be considered a belief, either a core idea, or bridged to a core.




But conversely those same people tend to find me incredibly boring.

We've been known to clear the room on many occasions when we get into a long talk about philosophy or spirituality.

However I've found that most people are far more interested in keeping conversation light and bouncing the topics around before they get worn out.

I've always wanted to learn to be better at light, fun conversation


I really want to be a less serious person not just for her but also so I can get along better with "normal people"

I fear this might become a serious death blow to our relationship if I can't learn to completely change who I am.

About 80% of people find me incredibly boring.

Taken in the context of my first post, we would have to conclude you find yourself boring, and so you are looking to make adjustments to the self to 'fit in'. If that is true, then that is what you project, and of course you will meet with corroborating experience. Especially from your most intimate contact, the GF.

Now, you do want to balance the self out - and this is the practice. You envy in a way the 'normal' people, and so find self thinking your an outcast quite often. You also have the relationship fears, not only with the current one, but any future possibilities, especially if they are 'normal'. And so you find a paradox, you want to be normal, and you dont. You take great pride in your intellect, and fear in a small way some loss of intelligence should you swim in the mire of normalcy for too long. They just might rub off, rather, you might 'turn normal'. Now, these inner explorations (deep thoughts or musings) are not meant as an escape you see. For physical life will keep drawing you back in, as seen with the GF. Metaphysical or spiritual discourse and learning/study, is meant as a compliment, not to avoid what is here and now, but to enhance it. What is 'here and now' is a work in progress, you see.

And so, you can be the life of the party and the spiritual mystic. By examining the true beliefs about self, your self imposed limitations (the way you feel about self in relation to others, and the world), you might find you wish to change some. Changing a belief automatically changes other bridged beliefs across the board and your physical experience the minute the belief is ............ well, believed.

Now, you can have your cake and eat it too. You can be deep and interesting (rather than boring), or light and fun, without an invasion to your intellect. The fount of creaturehood is fun, joy, expression, laughter. Animals play for a reason. It is pure joy to express the being in such a manner. And so your purpose is adulterated if you deny that aspect of who you are. And you deny it because of a belief, either from childhood conditioning, or outside influence growing up with some power, say peers or teachers.

I believe that is all for the moment, i will reread this and add if i wish, but my head is empty and that usually is the sign the message is complete. I do not have to teach you how to change beliefs or work on the self, you can get that from the internet.

[Im-Suffering]

i made some changes so if your reading the post edited at 440PM that is the complete one

[Kurt von Humboldt]

Well the problem with seeking help on the internet is that not unlike a used bookstore the self help section seems to be cluttered with second hand copies of new age rubbish.

[Im-Suffering]

Well the problem with seeking help on the internet is that not unlike a used bookstore the self help section seems to be cluttered with second hand copies of new age rubbish.

Working on beliefs is very practical, and involves use of the imagination. Finding the beliefs can be illusive, but clues can always be found within your conscious thoughts. Such as how I pulled apart your original post to highlight some of them.

Click on my nic, and then 'view posts' (i have several posts that answer how to change beliefs) or PM and i will help you one on one. But if you enjoy deep thought, then you may have a good read going through them. It may even stimulate further conversations among friends, and your own knowing, answers, to come and aid you, or take you where you need to go.

Edit at 607 PM after i have just seen the OP latest post, at the end of this page -

"Well, my beliefs aren't really the issue on this thread. In fact me and my GF share similar beliefs. That's the thing with beliefs, they're very personal. I'm not here to unblock my chi. I'm here on an ANXIETY FORUM because my GF suffers from crippling anxiety. I'm sorry if this seems passive aggressive but I came here to get help dealing with my GFs level 10 GAD and hear from others who have encountered similar relationship communication problems. Not to have my beliefs, which I have very consciously NOT stated, come into question. But since that seems to be your primary focus here I will just state that I am an Atheist. Not interested in your beliefs or anyone else's. Thanx."

And thus diverted all attention away from the self. The problem itself is not the relationship, that is just a symptom.

Either way, I am finished here.

[Kuma]

Hey Kurt. Kuma here. I'm Suffering seems to know a lot about you -- what you envy, what you want, what you take pride in, what happened in your childhood, etc. I don't know any of that stuff at all. All I know is what you wrote on this board. But I have a few thought on that, for whatever they are worth.

First, there's nothing wrong with being a "deep guy" -- you could be different if you want, but why? There's certainly nothing wrong with enjoying the kind of conversations you enjoy -- even if they do sort of clear the bar, sometimes. And I suppose there's also nothing wrong with disliking deep-dive conversations and keeping it light.

The real question is whether this is an impediment to a good relationship. Can the deep-dive guy (DDG) and the keep-it-light-chick (KILC) find a happy point in the middle? That could be moderately deep conversations, but not too deep. (I like 100 and you like 0, so lets do a lot of 50s). Or deep-dive conversations but not so often (DDG gets his fix, and KILC can deal with it so long as its not every day), and light conversations other times (Makes KILC happy and DDG can deal with it, so long as not every conversation is that way). That's different than the "lets do 50" -- its more like "lets do some 100s and some zeros." And there are other options. Or maybe this is really an impediment to your relationship because she hates what you love and you hate what she loves. You can figure that out. I bet you and KILC have other differences too, and lots of similarities.

I am interested in this because, to some extent, my marriage is similar. I am probably less of a DDG than you are, and my wife is probably less of a KILC than your girlfriend. But I am more of an intellectual sort than my wife. I read long history books and the like. And she likes to read People Magazine and watch pop-culture TV shows. That does NOT mean that I am smarter than my wife. (I suspect I am not). Just maybe different interests. I would be lying if I said this is perfect. But we manage to have conversations OK.

A friend of mine used to date a dumb girl. I am not talking about someone like my wife or like your KILC. She was really dumb. And he is a very smart guy. I asked him if it drove him nuts to spend so much time with a dumb (but very hot looking) woman. He said "no -- she is great in bed and if I want to talk with a smart guy, I will call you." So I guess that's another solution.

One last thought -- maybe you could discuss this issue, some time, with the KILC. Don't dive into it too deep -- even though you are a DDG. But maybe raise it more as just something interesting (and certainly not as a value judgment). Like "I am this DDG and it probably drives you nuts sometimes -- as it has others in the past -- and you are a KILC -- even though you are really smart -- and it is interesting that a DDG and a KILC get along so well." And just see the reaction. Could be interesting to hear her perspective.

[Kurt von Humboldt]

Well, my beliefs aren't really the issue on this thread. In fact me and my GF share similar beliefs. That's the thing with beliefs, they're very personal. I'm not here to unblock my chi. I'm here on an ANXIETY FORUM because my GF suffers from crippling anxiety. I'm sorry if this seems passive aggressive but I came here to get help dealing with my GFs level 10 GAD and hear from others who have encountered similar relationship communication problems. Not to have my beliefs, which I have very consciously NOT stated, come into question. But since that seems to be your primary focus here I will just state that I am an Atheist. Not interested in your beliefs or anyone else's. Thanx.

[Kurt von Humboldt]

Thank you Kuma, that last post was not directed toward you btw

[Kurt von Humboldt]

Just to clarify again my girlfriend is very deep and thoughtful, I think it's really just an issue of her anxiety being so high. It seems like any conversation that lingers on one topic for more than a few minutes begins to trigger an anxiety attack. But she is certainly not a "keep it light chick". She's a passionate advocate for animal rights, human rights etc. and by no means floating at the shallow end. It's more an issue of our communicative styles and her anxiety triggers.

[Kuma]

Just to clarify again my girlfriend is very deep and thoughtful, I think it's really just an issue of her anxiety being so high. It seems like any conversation that lingers on one topic for more than a few minutes begins to trigger an anxiety attack. But she is certainly not a "keep it light chick". She's a passionate advocate for animal rights, human rights etc. and by no means floating at the shallow end. It's more an issue of our communicative styles and her anxiety triggers.

A few thoughts, in response:

First -- and this may not apply to your girlfriend at all -- after all, none of us here has ever met her -- being a KILC does not imply being less intelligent. It is sometimes just a preference for what someone likes discussing. My wife is a high honors graduate of one of the very best universities in the United States. But she just likes light conversation. That does not mean she is incapable of other sort of conversation. Just a preference.

Second -- have you ever asked your girlfriend whether it makes her anxious when you dive into your DDG conversations, and if so why she thinks that is and how you can help her feel less anxious - about that or anything else. I have had plenty of conversations with my wife about my anxiety, and what triggers it, etc. It is not (at least for us) a taboo topic.

[Kurt von Humboldt]

Actually I brought it up last night and it almost threw her into an anxiety attack just talking about it. I'm not sure she's really made the correlation between our conversations and the onset of her anxiety but I've just started to observe a pattern and I've been noticing that if I keep the conversation light and fun and don't dwell on any serious topic for too long she never seems to have anxiety but the moment I stop consciously directing the conversation and it gets around to anything even slightly heavy, serious or otherwise "draining" (or even a light topic that lingers too long and becomes tiresome) she starts getting agitated.

[Kurt von Humboldt]

And obviously with her degree of GAD even the slightest agitation often develops into a full blown panic attack

[Kuma]

As someone who deals with anxiety myself, I understand that conversations about anxiety can trigger anxiety. And if they do not trigger anxiety, they can at least be annoying.

But the conversations are necessary, in my opinion. Of course, there are ways of saying things. For example, "your fucking anxiety is really annoying and what will it take for you to stop it already" would probably be suboptimal. But "what sort of things do you find trigger your anxiety most often" is not so bad. Or "is there anything I do that makes you more anxious"? Or "what have you found is the best approach to reducing your anxiety"? Or "how can I be helpful in reducing your anxiety"?

If it is really all focused in the deep-dive conversations, you could just decide to refrain from those conversations, at least for now, with your girlfriend. Only you can know whether that is acceptable to you or not. You might conclude that, even if it is not ideal, it is fine, if it reduces the anxiety -- and you can have your DDG conversations with your DDG friends. Or you can make a conscious effort to let your girlfriend take the lead in conversations.

Or you could decide that you don't need this shit and run away. But it sounds to me like you really like this girl and are invested in the relationship. And if that is the case, then -- over time -- some conversations about the anxiety and the triggers, etc. are necessary, in my opinion - while of course not spending all your time taking about anxiety, just as a cancer patient does not want to spend all her time talking about cancer.

[Goomba]

I have a similar situation. My girlfriend of 5-6 years struggles to communicate on the level that I do, especially when it comes to philosophy and new science. I love tackling big questions, but she usually scape goats it by saying that she is too tired to think on that level right now, or that she isn't capable of thinking on that level.

She has very high amounts of anxiety, and I think it's really just a way of creating a mental block to avoid confronting that part of herself.

There are times when I become irritated with the situation, and feel as though I am unable to express a side of myself that reflects more of who I really am. I would really like to be able to have a give and take with these kinds of things.

I still haven't figured it out. Usually we just resort to love making, and then I'm ok for a bit, haha.

On a more serious note, there are times when she will very subtly bring up some of these areas, and when she does, we are able to have an exchange. And, I really enjoy that.

All relationships serve a purpose. I find the more we try to mend the relationship to how we dreamed it would be, the more conflict we create. If it wasn't anxiety around deep conversation, it would be something else. The good and the bad are a package.

In other words, my advice would be to let it flow, while communicating how you feel along the way. Get it out there, so you can both reflect on it (If you haven't, I don't remember), and I think she will open up to that side of herself over time.

I think any further conversation would have to be with her. Her getting beyond this has to be work done on her part. Somewhere there is an issue(s) that creates the anxiety, and that what truly needs to be confronted for the healing to take place.

[Kuma]

. My girlfriend of 5-6 years struggles to communicate on the level that I do, especially when it comes to philosophy and new science. I love tackling big questions, but she usually scape goats it by saying that she is too tired to think on that level right now, or that she isn't capable of thinking on that level.

Of course, i know nothing of your personal situation. But it is worth keeping in mind that there's nothing wrong with not liking to tackle big questions about philosophy and "new science." You enjoy that but some other people may find that completely boring and a total waste of their time. There's no right and wrong there. So from my perspective it is not like the goal should to get her to a place where she wants to have these conversations more. More like how can you both be happy. That might involve you talking about this stuff with other people instead. It is not necessarily anxiety that causes someone to dislike certain conversations. It might just be their interests or how they enjoy spending their time.

[Goomba]

Of course, i know nothing of your personal situation. But it is worth keeping in mind that there's nothing wrong with not liking to tackle big questions about philosophy and "new science." You enjoy that but some other people may find that completely boring and a total waste of their time. There's no right and wrong there. So from my perspective it is not like the goal should to get her to a place where she wants to have these conversations more. More like how can you both be happy. That might involve you talking about this stuff with other people instead. It is not necessarily anxiety that causes someone to dislike certain conversations. It might just be their interests or how they enjoy spending their time.

Thanks for the insight, and I agree. I suppose I should add that she has expressed interest in the areas many times - possibly to just impress me, but I do think there is genuine interest present. Kurt also said that they share a lot of the same views/beliefs/interests, so I did make the assumption that his lady has a desire to talk about it as well.

I do think that the couple needs to get to an area where they can express how their interests freely, however. That is an important level of intimacy. So, in relevance to me, I think it's important that my girlfriend be able to respect my interests and bounce back opinions. I may have other relationships for daily "deep" thought exchanges, but if there is something I get particularly passionate about, the relationship should be able to entertain/respect it.

...Much like a women coming home from work, venting about workplace drama the man could care less about, the man is still able to hear where the women is at and facilitate a conversation. We need to be able to express ourselves freely in our relationships.

I hadn't given it too much thought that the reason my gf doesn't talk about those things isn't due to her anxiety. She does have intense anxiety, I'm fairly certain there is an interest in the material, and she has claimed that it's hard for her to talk about it because it brings up things within her. Maybe there is something else though. I will reflect on it. Thanks for the insight.

[namaste87]

Hm.. It's a thin line between being thoughtfull and carry someone else. When you try to carry someone elses anxiety it often doesn't end so well. At least not for me cause it ends with me being all burned out and sick and tired of the anxious other. And it's not that healthy to be carried, for a while if you are very ill, but not in the long run.

I believe the best thing you can do is to ask her how she's feeling. Be gentle but honest! Tell her you ask cause you care about her and your relationship.

[Kuma]

Thanks for the insight, and I agree. I suppose I should add that she has expressed interest in the areas many times - possibly to just impress me, but I do think there is genuine interest present. Kurt also said that they share a lot of the same views/beliefs/interests, so I did make the assumption that his lady has a desire to talk about it as well.

I do think that the couple needs to get to an area where they can express how their interests freely, however. That is an important level of intimacy. So, in relevance to me, I think it's important that my girlfriend be able to respect my interests and bounce back opinions. I may have other relationships for daily "deep" thought exchanges, but if there is something I get particularly passionate about, the relationship should be able to entertain/respect it.

...Much like a women coming home from work, venting about workplace drama the man could care less about, the man is still able to hear where the women is at and facilitate a conversation. We need to be able to express ourselves freely in our relationships.

I hadn't given it too much thought that the reason my gf doesn't talk about those things isn't due to her anxiety. She does have intense anxiety, I'm fairly certain there is an interest in the material, and she has claimed that it's hard for her to talk about it because it brings up things within her. Maybe there is something else though. I will reflect on it. Thanks for the insight.


This is an interesting set of issues, on which I am of two minds. On the one hand, I agree with you that if one spouse (or SO, etc.) wants to talk about something that is important to her/him, the other spouse should be willing to listen and engage. I think that is especially true if the matter is personal -- a problem you are having in your life, something that is bothering you, an important decision you need to make, etc. On the other hand, there is stuff my wife is interested in that she just knows I have absolutely no interest in at all. And there is stuff I am interested in that I know would bore my wife to tears. And while I suppose each of us would be polite if the other wanted to talk about that stuff -- we just usually don't. I can talk about the historical basis for certain modern-day mid-east conflicts with my friends who are interested in such things, and issues that are relevant to my business with my work colleagues. And she can talk about movie stars with her girlfriends, and the details of what's going on in the middle school with the other mommies. That way, we don't bore each other too much, or expect each other to feign interest. And there's enough stuff we do have in common that the Venn Diagram circles overlap, so to speak. And if my wife starts to talk about stuff that raises my anxiety level, I feel free to say "I don't really want to talk about that." And she respects that.

Anyway, I am certainly not saying that the way I deal with these things is the "right" way. Just some thoughts, for whatever they are worth (perhaps relatively little). Regards,

[Kurt von Humboldt]

I feel like there are two different issues being brought up here, one being the differences of interest between couples and the other being different conversation styles. I certainly have struggled with nearly all girlfriends in terms of our fields of interest, but that's generally a gender issue. My interest in antique motorcycles and her interest in women's clothing is certainly something I don't see as a problem. I've learned to be patient and force myself to pay attention when a girl is talking about shoes for an hour at a time. It's just something you learn to deal with. And I've also learned to not talk about things that don't interest them. I can talk with my male friends about our motorcycles and spare her that conversation. It's really not so bad learning what things are for discussing with which people in your life. And being a good boyfriend often means enduring shopping trips and pretending you want her to dress in anything but lingerie. It's just part of having a girlfriend. You humor each other with topics that you have no interest in, and you try to keep conversations that bore them to a minimum. Such is life. But as for the other topic, which relates for to anxiety issues... I'm convinced that being with a partner who suffers from severe anxiety is all about learning to steer conversations away from high anxiety topics or at least keeping those conversations to a minimum. Here's my formula. Assign a 1-10 stress level to the topic. For my girlfriend talking about how she is going to pay for college so she can finish her degree is about a 10. Talking about women's clothing is about a 1. Politics are about a 5 etc. Now start with their GAD level (my GF is a 10 so we'll us that number) and divide it by the stress level of the conversation. This will give the number of the minutes you can carry the conversation before offering a "way out" of the topic. For example. Talking about alternative anxiety medications seems to be about a 6.5 on the stress meter for her. So that means 10/6.5 gives me about 1.5 minutes on this topic before its time to change the conversation, or at least offer her a way out. She also gives me subtle facial clues when a topic is starting to cause her anxiety. You can come back to the topic later but be sure to give time for the anxiety to wear off. My "formula" isn't really something I use. I'm just trying to illustrate a point, but you get the idea. But it does seem like even a benign topic like what we're going to have for dinner can trigger anxiety if it continues for more than about 10 minutes. "flipping through the channels" and returning to the conversation later seem to give her a chance to reset the clock on her anxiety bomb

[Kuma]

I feel like there are two different issues being brought up here, one being the differences of interest between couples and the other being different conversation styles. I certainly have struggled with nearly all girlfriends in terms of our fields of interest, but that's generally a gender issue. My interest in antique motorcycles and her interest in women's clothing is certainly something I don't see as a problem. I've learned to be patient and force myself to pay attention when a girl is talking about shoes for an hour at a time. It's just something you learn to deal with. And I've also learned to not talk about things that don't interest them. I can talk with my male friends about our motorcycles and spare her that conversation. It's really not so bad learning what things are for discussing with which people in your life. And being a good boyfriend often means enduring shopping trips and pretending you want her to dress in anything but lingerie. It's just part of having a girlfriend. You humor each other with topics that you have no interest in, and you try to keep conversations that bore them to a minimum. Such is life. But as for the other topic, which relates for to anxiety issues... I'm convinced that being with a partner who suffers from severe anxiety is all about learning to steer conversations away from high anxiety topics or at least keeping those conversations to a minimum. Here's my formula. Assign a 1-10 stress level to the topic. For my girlfriend talking about how she is going to pay for college so she can finish her degree is about a 10. Talking about women's clothing is about a 1. Politics are about a 5 etc. Now start with their GAD level (my GF is a 10 so we'll us that number) and divide it by the stress level of the conversation. This will give the number of the minutes you can carry the conversation before offering a "way out" of the topic. For example. Talking about alternative anxiety medications seems to be about a 6.5 on the stress meter for her. So that means 10/6.5 gives me about 1.5 minutes on this topic before its time to change the conversation, or at least offer her a way out. She also gives me subtle facial clues when a topic is starting to cause her anxiety. You can come back to the topic later but be sure to give time for the anxiety to wear off. My "formula" isn't really something I use. I'm just trying to illustrate a point, but you get the idea. But it does seem like even a benign topic like what we're going to have for dinner can trigger anxiety if it continues for more than about 10 minutes. "flipping through the channels" and returning to the conversation later seem to give her a chance to reset the clock on her anxiety bomb


Kurt -- what would your girlfriend think if she read these observations that you posted? Would she find any merit to it? Or just be offended by it? It is just interesting to think about how much overlap, if any, there might be between the way you think about these issues and they way she does.

[namaste87]

I'm convinced that being with a partner who suffers from severe anxiety is all about learning to steer conversations away from high anxiety topics or at least keeping those conversations to a minimum. Here's my formula. Assign a 1-10 stress level to the topic. For my girlfriend talking about how she is going to pay for college so she can finish her degree is about a 10. Talking about women's clothing is about a 1. Politics are about a 5 etc. Now start with their GAD level (my GF is a 10 so we'll us that number) and divide it by the stress level of the conversation. This will give the number of the minutes you can carry the conversation before offering a "way out" of the topic. For example. Talking about alternative anxiety medications seems to be about a 6.5 on the stress meter for her. So that means 10/6.5 gives me about 1.5 minutes on this topic before its time to change the conversation, or at least offer her a way out. She also gives me subtle facial clues when a topic is starting to cause her anxiety. You can come back to the topic later but be sure to give time for the anxiety to wear off. My "formula" isn't really something I use. I'm just trying to illustrate a point, but you get the idea. But it does seem like even a benign topic like what we're going to have for dinner can trigger anxiety if it continues for more than about 10 minutes. "flipping through the channels" and returning to the conversation later seem to give her a chance to reset the clock on her anxiety bomb

I'm not convinced that this is a good idea. I'm afraid this is one of those "I belive I help my sick partner/friend/family member" but you're really just helping them stay sick. Her anxiety is not depending on your tactics to try to keep her out of it, the problem is deep inside of her, and she needs help with solving that, not help to keep mantain a unsustainable way of living. I know you do this out of love, and I don't have enough insight in your life to know what's the best of you, I tell you all this with the greatest respect. But your reasoning is giving me these vibes that you try to help her but you don't. Just the way that you don't make a anorectic people well by forcing them to eat.

And by the way you seem like a very good person who really tries to stay and support her instead of get scared and run away :)!

[Kurt von Humboldt]

Kuma - I certainly hope she wouldn't be offended as I believe she might be a member of this forum. As for the comments about women and shoes, I was mostly speaking in terms of previous girlfriends. Actually my current girlfriend is not really so into clothes and shoes as many previous girlfriends have been. That was just the most obvious example that I thought guys could relate to. And she already knows I just want her to wear nothing but lingerie every day. That's no secret.

Namaste87 - I am curious about your ideas on this. I get what you are saying but I don't really understand a practical application of the principle here. I just assumed that trying to avoid an anxiety attack is the best solution to the problem, much like feeding an anorexic a cheeseburger. I am not a mental health professional so I really can't even begin to wrap my head around "solving" her anxiety. I have always had suspicions that her anxiety may be the result of a few absolutely horrific experiences she had as a teenager involving violence and sexual assault. But she has always maintained that her anxiety is a mental illness which is caused by a chemical imbalance in her brain. I wouldn't dare try to question that since I don't imagine her reaction would be favorable.

[namaste87]

You just nailed it - you can't solve her anxiety! But you are trying to do that, right? With your strategies (which by the way are the most natural reaction).

Mabye an example from my own life could be helpfull. I lived with a girl who cut herself and had anorexia. All her friends were going through her room for razorblades, they were trying to force her to eat and so on, but it didn't make her better, it just took away her dignity and her friends got codependent. (Read about codependency here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codependency). I told this girl that "I am here for you, but I wont search through your room or try to force you to eat. I will be happy to your support if you are willing to try to seek professional help." And she told me that she felt relief that I didn't do those things, that I treated her like an grown up person.

That is the best thing I belive you can do for her - tell her that you see her suffering, that you are unsure of how to be the most supportive and aslo tell her that you can help her seek professional help for her condition. If she is suffering from mabye PTSD or trauma she needs professional help to get through that (mabye you don't have to tell her that you suspect that, I'm not sure..). If you really care for her you should be willing to take the risk that she will be pissed off. Probably she will in time be thankfull to you.

[Kuma]

Kuma - I certainly hope she wouldn't be offended as I believe she might be a member of this forum. As for the comments about women and shoes, I was mostly speaking in terms of previous girlfriends. Actually my current girlfriend is not really so into clothes and shoes as many previous girlfriends have been. That was just the most obvious example that I thought guys could relate to. And she already knows I just want her to wear nothing but lingerie every day. That's no secret.
.

I actually was not referring to the comments about shoes and clothes, etc., which i agree most guys can relate to -- and I think most girls would just smile, or maybe roll their eyes, at that.

I was more referring to the notion that certain topics you discuss trigger different levels of anxiety for her -- depending on the topic and the duration of the discussion -- and your effort to spend less time talking about issues that generate more anxiety for her. Would she acknowledge (either to you, or at least in her own mind) that some topics you talk about -- or talk about in more than a cursory way -- trigger her anxiety, and that a good solution for that is that you avoid talking about those topics, or minimize the duration of such conversations?

I can imagine all sort of good reasons why you would not want to raise this question with her. Among others, the conversation itself could trigger anxiety -- or discord -- and it might be more fun to talk about whether the Badgers will get into the final four (or whatever). But i am just interested in how two people who are close to one another -- one of whom suffers from anxiety and the other of whom mostly does not -- might see issues relating to anxiety and its triggers, and solutions, differently or similarly.

I think a lot about these issues, as a guy who has dealt with a fair bit of anxiety, married to a girl who (for the most part) has not (or at least not in the same way I have). I think my wife has tried to understand my anxiety and its triggers -- but has mostly not succeeded. (Her explanations about my anxiety are too conclusory, in my view, and lack nuance). But I don't really blame her for that. It is pretty complicated and sometimes I am not sure even I fully understand it. And, like poverty, or being a minority, it is pretty hard to fully understand if you have not been there. In any event, i have concluded that dealing with my anxiety is overwhelmingly my problem. It is an intensely personal experience.

I respect you for being very thoughtful about these issues.

[Kurt von Humboldt]

Well I don't think she would be offended by the anxiety conversation as she suffers from really severe anxiety and we've had a fair amount of conversation on the topic and she knows I'm trying to learn how to be as supportive as possible for her. In fact her anxiety is so bad that (in reference to Namaste's post earlier) at this point it's really just about preventing her from having as many attacks as possible. While we certainly do want her condition to improve, for us right now it's just about trying to make her as comfortable as possible and keep her anxiety from controlling her life. Also part of me raising these questions in forum was due to a conversation we had a few days ago in which she expressed that one of her previous boyfriends was really good at keeping her grounded and she had far less anxiety issues in that relationship than with other partners. And I've noticed that I seem to cause her a considerable amount of anxiety thus far in the relationship. I think this is due in part to my relatively blunt and straightforward manner of speaking, and a lack of experience with anxiety issues. But also I want to change my manner of communicating for other reasons as well. As I mentioned previously in the thread, she's not the first person who has found me a bit challenging to interact with. My approach to conversation is somewhat atypical and I've found it makes some people uncomfortable. As this is something I've been looking to change within myself, it seems like this relationship might be the perfect opportunity to learn how to converse in a way that makes people comfortable as opposed to making them feel anxious or uneasy.
As for my personality, I'm the opposite of anxious. I have a "zero f**ks given" type of personality. I have been often considered a bit of a lunatic in my own way, not for being socially anxious, but for being the opposite.
As for getting to the root of her anxiety, and helping her to overcome it... I am a pretty clever and perceptive person. I have talked people through countless bad acid trips, helped friends recover from mental illness, fought my way through addiction and drug induced madness without the use of medication and continue to persevere through what could be described as chemically induced schizophrenic tendencies. I often describe my mental process as a democracy of voices. I even think of myself in the third person a lot of the time. But that being said, I've become a bit of an expert in dealing with the fine line between genius and madness. If anyone can get inside her head and figure out what's going on inside her troubled psyche it's me. But her process is unlike anything I've encountered. It's incredibly complex and multifaceted. I can't help but question if she's suffering from all her problems (GAD, BPD, Bipolar2, Depression, Fibromyalgia, Sjogrens) as the result of PTSD from trauma she endured as a teenager, and now these various conditions are all physical and psychological manifestations of a deeply rooted injury to the soul.

[Kuma]

Well I don't think she would be offended by the anxiety conversation as she suffers from really severe anxiety and we've had a fair amount of conversation on the topic and she knows I'm trying to learn how to be as supportive as possible for her. In fact her anxiety is so bad that (in reference to Namaste's post earlier) at this point it's really just about preventing her from having as many attacks as possible. While we certainly do want her condition to improve, for us right now it's just about trying to make her as comfortable as possible and keep her anxiety from controlling her life. Also part of me raising these questions in forum was due to a conversation we had a few days ago in which she expressed that one of her previous boyfriends was really good at keeping her grounded and she had far less anxiety issues in that relationship than with other partners. And I've noticed that I seem to cause her a considerable amount of anxiety thus far in the relationship. I think this is due in part to my relatively blunt and straightforward manner of speaking, and a lack of experience with anxiety issues. But also I want to change my manner of communicating for other reasons as well. As I mentioned previously in the thread, she's not the first person who has found me a bit challenging to interact with. My approach to conversation is somewhat atypical and I've found it makes some people uncomfortable. As this is something I've been looking to change within myself, it seems like this relationship might be the perfect opportunity to learn how to converse in a way that makes people comfortable as opposed to making them feel anxious or uneasy.
As for my personality, I'm the opposite of anxious. I have a "zero f**ks given" type of personality. I have been often considered a bit of a lunatic in my own way, not for being socially anxious, but for being the opposite.
As for getting to the root of her anxiety, and helping her to overcome it... I am a pretty clever and perceptive person. I have talked people through countless bad acid trips, helped friends recover from mental illness, fought my way through addiction and drug induced madness without the use of medication and continue to persevere through what could be described as chemically induced schizophrenic tendencies. I often describe my mental process as a democracy of voices. I even think of myself in the third person a lot of the time. But that being said, I've become a bit of an expert in dealing with the fine line between genius and madness. If anyone can get inside her head and figure out what's going on inside her troubled psyche it's me. But her process is unlike anything I've encountered. It's incredibly complex and multifaceted. I can't help but question if she's suffering from all her problems (GAD, BPD, Bipolar2, Depression, Fibromyalgia, Sjogrens) as the result of PTSD from trauma she endured as a teenager, and now these various conditions are all physical and psychological manifestations of a deeply rooted injury to the soul.

I hope you don't take this the wrong way -- but since you say you are a direct kind of guy I assume you will not: Maybe you should just try to be the boyfriend rather than the therapist/psychologist/analyst for your girlfriend, and leave the diagnostics and the effort to "get inside her head and figure out what's going on inside her troubled psyche" to a professional. She may need a boyfriend and she may need a psychologist, but I doubt they can be the same person.

[Kurt von Humboldt]

An astute observation. But as I plan on spending my life with this woman, and so far the "professionals" have proven ineffectual, I don't really see much other option. All the "professionals" seem to treat the symptoms and charge exorbitant fees, without ever trying to get to the root of her problem. And to my knowledge none have yet proposed this glaringly obvious theory, which became pretty self evident after only a few weeks of dating. I also tend to think the psychiatric field is sorely misguided and missing the bigger picture. Hence the reason nobody has every noticed the elephant in the room. Occam's Razor say's it's not just a coincidence that she endured severe trauma as a youth and now she has all these problems.

[Kurt von Humboldt]

And if I've learned one thing from my higher education, it's that education does not in fact make a person smarter or more knowledgeable. In fact I think every person has an intuitively equal understanding of our own cognitive process, and I don't see someone who studied psychology for 8 years as any more qualified to diagnose a persons "condition". I'd sooner put my trust in a shaman or a Buddhist monk than someone who spent 8 years getting brainwashed with post-modern psycho-babble.

[Kuma]

And if I've learned one thing from my higher education, it's that education does not in fact make a person smarter or more knowledgeable. In fact I think every person has an intuitively equal understanding of our own cognitive process, and I don't see someone who studied psychology for 8 years as any more qualified to diagnose a persons "condition". I'd sooner put my trust in a shaman or a Buddhist monk than someone who spent 8 years getting brainwashed with post-modern psycho-babble.

I suppose we disagree there. While of course there are good psychologists and bad psychologists (same with teachers, cardiologists, ministers, landscapers, investment bankers and chefs), as a general matter I think psychologists are qualified to diagnose and treat psychological conditions (sometimes with input from a psychiatrist who has expertise in psychopharmacology, in the event that medication is required). I do not believe that good psychological training can be fairly described as "brainwashing" (any more than any other higher level education can be fairly described that way). But of course if you or your girlfriend -- or anyone else -- would prefer to be diagnosed or treated by a shaman or a Buddhist monk, that is your/her prerogative.

[gypsylee]

And if I've learned one thing from my higher education, it's that education does not in fact make a person smarter or more knowledgeable. In fact I think every person has an intuitively equal understanding of our own cognitive process, and I don't see someone who studied psychology for 8 years as any more qualified to diagnose a persons "condition". I'd sooner put my trust in a shaman or a Buddhist monk than someone who spent 8 years getting brainwashed with post-modern psycho-babble.

The problem with psychologists and psychiatrists is they probably haven't suffered from the "illnesses" they treat. They can help with solutions but they generally don't have the empathy required to deal with anxiety and what not. I honestly think the advice given right here is often better than that of professionals. There are people here who have overcome severe anxiety disorders and the insight gained from that isn't something you can learn in a lecture. Everyone has their own approach of course but there is so much wisdom here from people who have actually suffered from anxiety. I wish I had've had a place like this to come to when I started experiencing debilitating anxiety. Not to mention it doesn't cost a thing :)

[Kuma]

The problem with psychologists and psychiatrists is they probably haven't suffered from the "illnesses" they treat. They can help with solutions but they generally don't have the empathy required to deal with anxiety and what not. I honestly think the advice given right here is often better than that of professionals. There are people here who have overcome severe anxiety disorders and the insight gained from that isn't something you can learn in a lecture. Everyone has their own approach of course but there is so much wisdom here from people who have actually suffered from anxiety. I wish I had've had a place like this to come to when I started experiencing debilitating anxiety. Not to mention it doesn't cost a thing :)

Gyp -- I respect your views a lot. But I am not sure a psychologist or psychiatrist needs to have suffered from anxiety personally in order to to offer useful advice and treatments. Many doctors have not personally suffered from the diseases they treat -- but they still are able to offer useful treatments based on their expertise and their experience with other patients.

I agree there is also something to be learned from people on this and other similar boards. There is a lot of good information here, and a lot of experience to learn from. On the other hand, there is also a lot of total nonsense, purported statements of "fact" that are in reality untrue, and bad advice. And it can sometimes be difficult to sort out one from the other.

[Lilliebelle89]

I'm dating someone who suffers from pretty severe anxiety and I've started to notice that it seems like I'm causing her anxiety with my conversational style. I often like to get really "deep on a topic". I've been accused of "kicking the dead horse" by people in the past. I really enjoy talking for a long time about serious topics, especially matters which are close to the heart. This seems to really cause anxiety for my girlfriend. If I keep the conversation light and don't stay on a topic for too long, especially anything serious in nature, she seems to be fine. But if the conversation becomes serious or dwells on one topic for too long it seems to trigger an anxiety attack. Is this a fairly common thing? I'm still learning how to interact with her in a way that keeps her feeling upbeat and positive. Does this mean I'm going to have to completely retrain my way of conversing? I'm a deep and thoughtful person, and honestly the idea of always keeping conversation light and not lingering on any topic seems daunting. Thoughts?

Hey there. I think it's really nice and genuine of you to want to change yourself to help your girlfriends anxiety. I too suffer with anxiety and ocd and past boyfriends have always struggled to understand me so I think it's really great that you are reaching out and trying to be the best you can for her.

A few comments:

You say your girlfriend is intelligent but just the intense conversations make her anxious. From personal experience I would say maybe she is worried about saying the wrong thing because you have such strong views and is maybe a little intimidated by that? So it might not be the fact you are having such intense conversation, more so that she lacks in confidence and worries about what to say back? I think in Time that will get better. You seem really confident and that's great but she may feel like she wants to impress you. Just be patient with her as I reckon in time she might get more confident around you and give her opinions and enjoy intense conversation.

I don't think you should change yourself. What is normal? You should always be true to yourself and if you enjoy deep conversations then you should have them. Maybe if you see her get anxious you could change the topic and lighten up a bit for now but I think most of all you should maybe ask her about it. Does it make her more anxious? I'm sure she will appreciate you wanting to help and understand what triggers her anxiety.

Anyway good luck you sound a great guy and I am sure the both of you will work it out. All the best!

[gypsylee]

Gyp -- I respect your views a lot. But I am not sure a psychologist or psychiatrist needs to have suffered from anxiety personally in order to to offer useful advice and treatments. Many doctors have not personally suffered from the diseases they treat -- but they still are able to offer useful treatments based on their expertise and their experience with other patients.

I agree there is also something to be learned from people on this and other similar boards. There is a lot of good information here, and a lot of experience to learn from. On the other hand, there is also a lot of total nonsense, purported statements of "fact" that are in reality untrue, and bad advice. And it can sometimes be difficult to sort out one from the other.

I was a bit tired when I wrote that ;)

I do think empathy is more important when dealing with complex conditions like anxiety though. For example, I have diabetes as well and that's a pretty simple thing for doctors to treat and I easily got that under control. Anxiety on the other hand - I've seen countless GPs, various psychologists and a couple of psychiatrists, and never really gotten very good advice. The most successful treatment has been SSRI meds. That's pretty substantial help but we all know meds are only part of the equation.

Now I think about the psychologists I've seen, they're pretty hopeless lol. The last one I saw I never went again because I felt so uncomfortable; I felt like I was running the session because he was really awkward and unconfident. Years ago I saw this woman who was really overbearing and sold me this book she wrote, which wasn't even very good. So I never went back to her either.

The psychiatrists I've seen have actually been better. I saw the same one for 17 years and had a great rapport with him. I only stopped seeing him because he retired. But the bottom line was always meds and different diagnoses. He never really went into what causes anxiety and how to get at the core of that. It seems obvious to me now that I've had severe anxiety all along but I got given anti-psychotics and all sorts of nasty drugs.

GPs are just terrible with mental illness so I won't even go into my experiences with them. I've always been a "difficult" patient lol but yeah my experience with professionals has been less than impressive. I've never seen a Buddhist Monk or a shaman haha, but I've read a lot of that stuff. I don't think they are the answer either (although Buddhist mindfulness techniques come close).

So I think the down-to-earth advice here is some of the best out there. You do have to sort the wheat from the chaff but people here really get at the basics of anxiety, which seems to be very hard for people who haven't experienced it.

The best approach is probably seeing a good psychologist or psychiatrist (if you can find one!) AND talking about it on here.