People.

[Air Breather]

Hi everyone,
Posted my introduction in the welcome thread a few days ago and there is so much to say but it appears not many people respond in that section.

I am an old soul and been in my cave basically for the last 13 years this November, I fought for the help I received and yet the things that get offered are always short term. These things never help enough as it feels like I get to a certain level and always fall back, as I do it gets worse each time as I am reaching a place deeper than I have been before, the thoughts that go through my head just get more and more extreme and I can't switch them off, the same as I couldn't switch off who I am recently with the young lady that dumped me for being over-caring and me.

[Kuma]

Hello Air Breather. (That is a good thing to breathe. Actually, my favorite thing to breathe is air!). What do you mean when you say you are "an old soul." I have heard that expression before, but I don't really know what it means. Also, what do you mean when you say you have been in a cave? Do you mean that you tend to spend time by yourself?

I hope this forum can be helpful to you in some ways.

[Air Breather]

Hi Kuma, as an inquisitive soul who has only just started questioning, an old soul is one that has lived many lives, this doesn't always mean literally in human life times, sometimes it means one has experienced a lot in their own lifetime that would fill many lifetimes and has left them aged beyond their years.

Yes breathing is good, wanted to be anonymous and it was the best thing I could think of for an id that had nothing to do with who I am, other than breathing air too.

Kinda of Kuma, spend time with myself because I find people irritating and am literally living in my house (cave) hardly going out for the last 13 years.

[Anra]

I too find people irritating and tend to avoid social situations. Some days I find I even hate them, even those I live with. It's an awful cycle which I would love to break out of!

Not sure what advice to give as I'm pretty much in the same position as you, except the shutting myself away for so long. I guess all you (or we) can do is gradually ease ourselves into a position where we have to interact with others, friends or relatives are the best option as strangers seem to irk me a heck of a lot more!

Perhaps you could begin by simply talking online, this is a lot less stressful and irritating depending on which forums you inhabit; some tend to attract total opinionated jerks with nothing interesting or polite to say... In my experiences game forums seem to be the worst place to find decent conversation.

If I may ask, what sort of help have you received in the past? I find it strange that everything for you has been short-term!

[Kuma]

Wow that must be really tough to spend years and years more or less alone. I actually like having time alone, but that is probably because I do not have so much of it.

Maybe I can relate at least a little bit because when my anxiety is at its worst, I feel uncomfortable having people around. Sometimes, for example, I have to go to lunch with people or to a business meeting, and I am feeling really anxious -- and I just want it to be over with quickly so I can go back to being alone. I am not sure why this is, but I guess it is because I feel like I am just "pretending" when I talk to people because really I am not focused on what they are saying, but am instead just tense and on edge, which of course I cannot acknowledge. The "pretending" sort of exacerbates my anxiety and heightens my stress levels. But, thankfully, for me, this only happens when my anxiety is at its worst -- and on other occasions I am fine having people around, and usually even enjoy it.

How do you manage to live if you cannot go out of your house? I mean, do you earn money? Or get public assistance? Or have someone else to support you? Of course, you don't have to answer these questions, but I am just interested in the lives of other people and how they manage to deal with their anxiety. I am in a position where I have to work and earn money because I have a family and an obligation to support them. My anxiety can be pretty tough at times, but it is not their fault and I try really hard not to make it their problem. In a way, this is a good thing for me because it gives me motivation to minimize the impact of my anxiety (to the extent possible) and to resist falling into despair. I have a pretty high stress job and I function pretty well at it. But it's not always easy.

I hope you manage, over time, to come out of your cave. I hope you find that your experiences (as an old soul) can make you stronger and more able to help yourself and help others. You probably have a lot of valuable insights and perspective to share with people. I know you say people irritate you, but I bet there are some people who would not irritate you.

Anyway, I wish you all the best.

[Dahila]

Hi Kuma, as an inquisitive soul who has only just started questioning, an old soul is one that has lived many lives, this doesn't always mean literally in human life times, sometimes it means one has experienced a lot in their own lifetime that would fill many lifetimes and has left them aged beyond their years.

Yes breathing is good, wanted to be anonymous and it was the best thing I could think of for an id that had nothing to do with who I am, other than breathing air too.

Kinda of Kuma, spend time with myself because I find people irritating and am literally living in my house (cave) hardly going out for the last 13 years.

there is not reaching deeper, there is just more fears and anxiety, probably depression too. Then you said you experienced so much that you can feel a few peoples life. Maybe. Do you have any idea what people go through? I am not sure you do. When I was working in nursing home there was that young lady, Sue , with genetic disorder, her body was shaking all the time. It was very tricky to feed her. My heart had break everytime she was in dinning room. I had never seen such suffering, and then she had a smile, crooked one. Everytime someone touched her, she smiled.............she died when she was 34 years old.....that's suffering


If you really believe in reincarnation, you must know that you are the one who chose this life, due the lesson you can learn. Suffering is required for your soul do develop.

Oh man you like the thingy about many lifes, it is easier for people that to know that there is one life, this life, this moment, today, right now.

Anra I find people annoying too, and there are days that I do not want to see anyone, or talk to anyone, but, I need to go to work, to eat. I need to answer and be polite to others even if it almost kills me. I am suffering this for over 40 years....go figure

[Steven Miller]

Kinda of Kuma, spend time with myself because I find people irritating

Can you tell us what it is about people that you find irritating?


I am not sure why this is, but I guess it is because I feel like I am just "pretending" when I talk to people because really I am not focused on what they are saying, but am instead just tense and on edge, which of course I cannot acknowledge. The "pretending" sort of exacerbates my anxiety and heightens my stress levels.

This is a powerful insight. It shows you really have a grasp of the situation. When we find ourselves "pretending" it means we are behaving in ways that we do not want to be behaving. Or we may be not behaving in ways we would like to be behaving. Forcing yourself to stay in a meeting you do not want to stay in provokes anxiety. Your body is telling you one thing, and you are making it do something else. I recommend asking your body next time you are in a meeting, what is it you would really want to be doing instead of sitting here? Would you want to just walk out the door? Where would you want to go? To your family? Your home? What would you do? What is out there that is not in this room? And, assuming you can't get out of the room for whatever reason, then how would you like to spend the time? Is there someone you'd like to have a conversation with? Is there someone you'd like to ask to never speak again?

The reality is we live surrounded by the resources we need. But because of law and social order, we cannot access them without doing the will of others (aka jobs). This can be painful because it forces us to do things we may not want to do, and to pretend that we do. Very painful.


Suffering is required for your soul do develop.

This belief infuriates me. I believed it for over 5 years so I know what I am talking about. I don't take issue with people who believe it, I take issue with the belief itself. The only thing anxiety can do, when analyzed properly, is teach you how to stop feeling anxious. It offers no other benefits. It is a view that has been used for centuries to keep people from questioning their circumstances. We live in a society where much of the anxiety is avoidable, but greed and carelessness on the part of some perpetuate it. To believe that our "soul" develops from it is quite harmful because it stops people from questioning the power structures that are in part responsible for it.

[Air Breather]

Steve, I agree that the limitations that certain religions place upon its followers trap people into a never ending spiral of negativity, in the case of 'suffering is required for your soul to develop' being one of the most harsh, especially seeing as our souls are already developed and have access to all the knowledge of the universe.

As for what irritates me about people, I am unable to remain calm around people, there is too much information just around one person, let alone crowds and I rarely do crowds unless I really have to. The pretence that everyone believes the metaphorical bubble they are in is more important than someone else, that divisions created by social programming have seriously hindered our species, just for starters.

No offence Dahlia, I am fully aware of what people go through, that is part of the problem as I can't turn it off, and at the same time I see the hypocrisy surrounding what people believe to be true.

To me suffering is someone who has a 2 or 3 hour walk to get clean water and find the well dry, and when they get home if they are lucky enough to have the internet seeing people pour buckets of water over their heads; parents seeing their children heads blown off, when they are innocent of any crime or even part of the conflict that has been created by a small few; people believing that a race or ideology has more precedence over someone else is ironically also suffering because they are so wrapped up in anger, belief and/or greed that they know no different; see there are many ways to look at suffering and while the young lady you helped was also suffering in a world where she shouldn't have needed to, limiting oneself to such a small mindset about what suffering is still creates a division that harms us as a species, and harms us as individuals, but most people are oblivious to that side of life.

Anra, Thank You.

The help I have received in the past has been counselling, lots of it, many different meds, CBT, and other anxiety management programs and the like. When I came out of hospital in 2002 I was basically left to my own devices and it took nearly 18 months before I was taken on by a counselling service. I have to plan going out 2 days in advance, I know where I am going to park (within reason), roughly how many people I may encounter as I get to the places I go to and then head home having to sleep as I am so worn out just by talking to one or two people.

[Steven Miller]

The pretence that everyone believes the metaphorical bubble they are in is more important than someone else

Why do you have a problem with this? How could you expect someone to care more about other people than about themselves? If people cared about others as much as they care about themselves, it would be quite shocking. We have not evolved to live this way. We are animals. We don't expect apes to care for others more than themselves, we should not expect people to either. Yes, we have empathy and compassion. But most of the time we are focused on getting what we want. This is not morally wrong. It is natural.


that divisions created by social programming have seriously hindered our species, just for starters.


More good insight. This is very problematic, I quite agree. If you (or anyone else) felt like elaborating on this social programming, I would be very interested. I think it is essential to understanding our feelings of anxiety. I often wonder if those of us with anxiety are simply more sensitive to the forces that prevent us from acting naturally. In other words, we have a greater will than others. When we cannot act on this will because of social programming, it disturbs us more deeply than others. Just a theory though.


I have to plan going out 2 days in advance, I know where I am going to park (within reason), roughly how many people I may encounter as I get to the places I go to and then head home having to sleep as I am so worn out just by talking to one or two people.

I want to conclude by repeating what I've said in a dozen times on this forum. You are an animal. You are an organism. You have drives. Freud's book Civilization and its Discontents may be of use.


In this seminal book, Sigmund Freud enumerates what he sees as the fundamental tensions between civilization and the individual. The primary friction, he asserts, stems from the individual's quest for instinctual freedom and civilization's contrary demand for conformity and instinctual repression. Freud states that when any situation that is desired by the pleasure principle is prolonged, then it creates a feeling of mild contentment. Many of humankind's primitive instincts (for example, the desire to kill and the insatiable craving for sexual gratification) are clearly harmful to the well-being of a human community. As a result, civilization creates laws that prohibit killing, rape, and adultery, and it implements severe punishments if such rules are broken. Thus our possibilities of happiness are restricted by the law. This process, argues Freud, is an inherent quality of civilization that instills perpetual feelings of discontent in its citizens.

Of course, I don't believe Freud is arguing that we do away with these laws. Certainly killing, rape etc. are to be prohibited at all costs. But if we don't see the bad (repression of instincts) with the good (safe communities) than we will never be able to comprehend either, and we will experience great anxiety.

[Dahila]

This belief infuriates me. I believed it for over 5 years so I know what I am talking about. I don't take issue with people who believe it, I take issue with the belief itself. The only thing anxiety can do, when analyzed properly, is teach you how to stop feeling anxious. It offers no other benefits. It is a view that has been used for centuries to keep people from questioning their circumstances. We live in a society where much of the anxiety is avoidable, but greed and carelessness on the part of some perpetuate it. To believe that our "soul" develops from it is quite harmful because it stops people from questioning the power structures that are in part responsible for it.
I agree , I just wrote it as an example :) I do not agree with the statements of suffering being the core of life. This is why I quit on that nonsense years ago. I left mindfulness meditation only, it helps me to achieve inner balance and peace :)
I like the thread it goes in very interesting direction.
Air breather; No offense :)

[Anne1221]

Air Breather, what is it you are looking for? To get your anxiety to the point of being more manageable, to be able to be around people more, or maybe to find another woman who makes you feel the way the other one did? (only find one who will appreciate the care you bestow). Just wondering...

[Air Breather]

Steven, maybe that is the point, we are not evolving but de-evolving from what the social constructs have done in the last 100 years, 500 years, 1,000 years and more back to being more aware of what our place is in the natural system, and I agree in principle that social programming causes needless anxiety and depression. It is quite clear from archaeological digs that they were more community orientated with high levels of trade over vast distances.

Not knocking that Freud wasn't a clever man but he and his brother in law (Bernaise) were part of the social programming that started in the 1920's to develop this last century into one of consumption and even more greed.

Anne1221 That is a great question, what am I looking for? I don't know is the honest answer as my head is tangled in so many ways and everything I have done over the last 13 years to change it has just added to the tangle instead of undoing it, yes I would like my anxiety more manageable, yes I would like to be able to not feel like I had been hit emotionally and physically by a speeding train every time I am around people yes I would like to find a woman that can appreciate who I am and we can bounce things off of each other.

[Steven Miller]

Have you tried social exposure therapy? Go stand on a corner and ask people for directions to a nearby road. You'd be amazed at how many people will be kind, friendly, smile, and help you out.

I'm going out tonight to a bar to meetup with a group of people I've never met before, because we are all looking to meet new people. Am I nervous? Heck yes. Many of them will be too. But I know from experience that I enjoy people's company, and if tonight doesn't go well, I know that I'll have success next week, or the week after that.

[Dahila]

three sins of our time; greed, hate and lack of compassion

[Air Breather]

I wouldn't be that surprised Steven, yet while they are standing there being kind, friendly and smiling they are giving off more information than that and even that brief minute while I am going through therapy, I would need to go home and sleep as it would be like a high speed freight train hitting me and I would need to sleep.

I would love to go to a bar and stay there the night to enjoy it like the old days, and good on you for putting yourself out there, am glad that what ever is working for you is working.

[Steven Miller]

Air Breather, when you are engaged with someone, do you ever consciously think what you want from that other person?

I keep saying it over and over on this board that anxiety is the result of the mind subconsciously repressing awareness of what it really wants, because it is afraid that what it wants is socially unacceptable or unattainable.

Once you know what you desire from an interaction, then the amount of information stops being overwhelming because you can filter through it. For example, I recently met a new co-worker. I know that I want to exchange stories with her of our work. Now I need to filter her information to determine if she wants the same thing. If so, we have a mutually beneficial relationship. If not, I move on to a different co-worker.

It isn't that much different with romantic relationships. You know that you want to be physically intimate with a woman you meet. You know that you want to find someone that will share new experiences like X or Y with you. Then, you just go up to a woman and you start talking to her and looking for clues about whether she might be interested in the same things. If she isn't, you move on to a different woman. You don't have to be anxious or afraid of being rejected, because you know that you will find the right person if you keep on trying. People with anxiety are so hurt the first time they just stop looking. Eventually they give up looking to begin with.

You have to know what you want. You have to be selfish. You have to take risks. You have to be willing to fail. You have to keep trying. People with anxiety suck at doing this. I keep repeating myself here.

[Air Breather]

I understand why you have that opinion Steven but just because you are saying it over and over again it doesn't make it right, or wrong, it is just an opinion. By the sounds of it you have done a lot of reading to understand where you are at, same here, yet from a science background, and I started with what we are many years ago, my opinion is more connected to the disconnection between the electrical beings we are and the world we live in, but that is something for another time.

I think you are seeing that the information we give off being one of a more physical nature, while that has its own standing in the bigger picture it is not the only one, we see everything, we feel everything going on around us and our brains filter out the bits that don't fit with what we are told is the 'norm', since the first time I was clinically dead at 2 1/2 I haven't built the same filters that most people seem to have and see the world a little differently.

I am humbled for the time you have put in to let me know your opinion on my anxieties, I do actually see that in part the last post makes sense and fits with a part of it, as I keep saying to others, we all have a small part of the answer but the whole answer is already there in the universe and we just need to reach out and the universe will give us the part of the answer we need.

For the last 7 years I have worked out a way to go out on occasion, by planning 2 days ahead, which is why I don't go out very often, and if we didn't have 24hr supermarkets I would be in serious trouble, yet even that is a struggle.

The thing that has got me down about the recent brief relationship is that she was attracted to me for being me, then dumped me for being me, one of the things she said was I am too nice and she couldn't handle it, take from that what you will but I am not going to change as I feel that would make me a hypocrite and that is one kind of person I can't stand. It could have been anyone, but she was the first person I have been attracted to in 13 years and that has hurt the most because I never thought I would feel anything for anyone again in that way.

As for how I deal with my anxieties, I meditate, even have some fast meditations I do when I am out to keep myself together, while I rush home, other than that ironically I scuba dive which takes a lot of pre-planning on my part but since I was persuaded to try it a few years ago have found for a day or two after feel fairly calm and can actually open the front door and go out without planning. I know you are going to say it is endorphines and the like, but I have tried surfing, kite boarding and a few other things and while I have enjoyed them a lot, they have no where near the same effect. I do not endorse anyone trying scuba diving with anxieties and depression though as all our brains work slightly differently.

So as you can see the cave is a metaphorical one on the whole, but of the last 13 years I have easily spent over 80% on my own anyway.

[Im-Suffering]

I understand why you have that opinion Steven but just because you are saying it over and over again it doesn't make it right, or wrong, it is just an opinion. By the sounds of it you have done a lot of reading to understand where you are at, same here, yet from a science background, and I started with what we are many years ago, my opinion is more connected to the disconnection between the electrical beings we are and the world we live in, but that is something for another time.

I think you are seeing that the information we give off being one of a more physical nature, while that has its own standing in the bigger picture it is not the only one, we see everything, we feel everything going on around us and our brains filter out the bits that don't fit with what we are told is the 'norm', since the first time I was clinically dead at 2 1/2 I haven't built the same filters that most people seem to have and see the world a little differently.

I am humbled for the time you have put in to let me know your opinion on my anxieties, I do actually see that in part the last post makes sense and fits with a part of it, as I keep saying to others, we all have a small part of the answer but the whole answer is already there in the universe and we just need to reach out and the universe will give us the part of the answer we need.

For the last 7 years I have worked out a way to go out on occasion, by planning 2 days ahead, which is why I don't go out very often, and if we didn't have 24hr supermarkets I would be in serious trouble, yet even that is a struggle.

The thing that has got me down about the recent brief relationship is that she was attracted to me for being me, then dumped me for being me, one of the things she said was I am too nice and she couldn't handle it, take from that what you will but I am not going to change as I feel that would make me a hypocrite and that is one kind of person I can't stand. It could have been anyone, but she was the first person I have been attracted to in 13 years and that has hurt the most because I never thought I would feel anything for anyone again in that way.

As for how I deal with my anxieties, I meditate, even have some fast meditations I do when I am out to keep myself together, while I rush home, other than that ironically I scuba dive which takes a lot of pre-planning on my part but since I was persuaded to try it a few years ago have found for a day or two after feel fairly calm and can actually open the front door and go out without planning. I know you are going to say it is endorphines and the like, but I have tried surfing, kite boarding and a few other things and while I have enjoyed them a lot, they have no where near the same effect. I do not endorse anyone trying scuba diving with anxieties and depression though as all our brains work slightly differently.

So as you can see the cave is a metaphorical one on the whole, but of the last 13 years I have easily spent over 80% on my own anyway.

Right now, drop any facade, let the ego rest from it's guarded position. For the moment allow new suggestions in, and relax the body. Open the imagination and creative faculties. Now I shall begin:

The following is a psychic reading, I am a medium, and it's from a close friend, an 'old soul', in your terms who requested a word with you. Yes, on an anonymous Internet forum. (She is laughing).

My dear friend,

Mental masturbation with both yourself, self talk, and others in the same predicament won't offer you relief. Over the years you have developed quite the defensive mechanisms, using metaphysical theorem as an escape, to hide, and to justify, rather than as a compliment to enhance life.

The problem is with people, with sexuality, with abandonment, guilt, shame, for the world came crashing down on you literally, and as a child suffering the abuse and neglect, the self suggestions became truth. Yet the truth is distorted and twisted to fit a young psyche trying o cope with horrendous events seemingly thrust upon him.

You simply cannot have fulfilling relationships now, your beliefs dictate your life, and you know what they are, listen to your conscious thoughts. Suicide is not a way out, as you lean to spirituality, you have seen the error in judgment.

Suicide does not end the pain. Now, I am here today with a message. About face and look into the mirror. Prepare for a journey into the emotions of the young boy who lived through all the trauma. That boy never got to speak, period. So we have repression and pent energies. The problems have not been solved. It is for you and the boy to merge during healing, you see, for the boy is you.

Now you don't relive those past experiences to rehash them, curse them, and then go on your way, as you have done over time, you relive them, experiencing them from that young boys perspective, the boy who it happened to, and that boy must find peace, reason, forgiveness, and ultimately love. You do not have to love them, you need to love you, but not hate them, the hate and anger must go.

Find, accept, validate you, as a vital part of humanity. And then you can begin a new journey with your true soulmate, who is waiting in the wings to see if you will get your act together this life, that relationship is probable, meaning it is already written, she is there, but if you do not heal, face your struggle, and overcome the challenges, that relationship will stay probable and not actualize in your present. You will not meet, not in way you expect, because you would have not done the work that you planned for and promised. That relationship was to act as a symbol of the ultimate prize for your accomplishments as you overcome what you set out to do.

The other female relationships that you lament over, were meant to force you to look inside, they were gifts in that way, to trigger and initialize the internal search for answers, once resolved the real soulmate can surface and your life can begin, together, without the baggage that is to be worked through beforehand. This is a pact, pre-birth, and your destiny. That is why the others had to leave, you see, to get you ready for the one.

Now it's been many years, and you could have been well into healing by now, so I am here today to kick you in the ass, my beloved.

Finally, a word on diving, it is soothing, but symbolically stands for a release in pressure mimicking the internal need for an emotional release. So you intuitively find it comforting. Adding a therapeutic balance for the psyche and stimulating the idea of health and vitality.

I am a soulmate too (a dead one in your terms, haha) and I have come from the universe to help you along, this is our intersection, and now I am gone. Your life is waiting and so is your special earth friend. What will you do, this time?

End of message and reading.

[Dahila]

Oh I agree so much with your post about repressed emotions of traumatic event in childhood, I agree, I never thought I will say it, but this post is really eye opening and should help many, even I can benefit from it. It is so true what you said Iamsuffering:)

[Anne1221]

It's so ironic because as a woman, I hear women complain all the time about men not treating women nice enough. There are so many women out there who would love to have a great, nice guy in their life. You seem so comfortable online..why not try to meet a woman that way. However, as you know, that is fraught with difficulties and problems, but you're intelligent so I think you would be okay.

[Air Breather]

Thank You for your kind words Anne1221, I am not perfect and would never claim to be, but I do have a lot of love to give and am re-reading Im-Sufferings post a few times as there are some good points brought up and appreciate the time she has given for me a lot, when I have processed it and am able to reply to her then I will be happy to chat about other things.

[Steven Miller]

Air Breather, I don't think Im-suffering is a woman. I think the dead person he was channeling in his post is.

Anyway, it sounds like your anxiety is at a level that I have not encountered, so I won't say too much else. But I can't resist pointing out that the accusation of being "too nice" is exactly what I have been talking about. I'm gonna guess that you never thought about what you wanted from her, only what you could do for her?

[Anne1221]

I get the impression too, that I'm Suffering is a male.

[Air Breather]

Apologies Im-Suffering, I saw that the person you were channeling was female and presumed you were as well.

I never want anything from anyone Steven and see where you are going but don't think you understand why I am the way I am and never look for anything from people.

[Steven Miller]

I guess not and I am guessing you don't want to share. Perhaps past trauma or what have you, I respect that. My only view is that all human organisms have universal needs that only other people can fulfill. If you don't believe people can give you anything of value, then how can you value other people? Anyway I am speaking generally here so there is no need to respond if you don't feel like it.

[Air Breather]

I see where you are going, I do value what other people give me and am humbled when they do as I never ask for, or want anything from them, to me is a huge difference.

For example, A friend has just helped me foster a dog by paying the estate agents pet deposit (which she offered), I am blown away by her generosity and can only give the dog a loving home as it was going to be put down as a Thank You, but it would take me a long time to pay her back financially and she hasn't asked, I don't want to say anything directly to her as I don't want to offend her kindness but will ask another friend to subtly find out for me.

As for why I am the way I am in not wanting or asking people for anything, I don't know where it stems from, you are probably right that it was a past trauma but I don't think I would be able to pinpoint it, selfishly it makes me happy the way I am and if others can't deal with it, whose problem is it in the end?

[Enduronman]

Just wanted to wish you a great day friend!
Things will get better for you and everyone else here too at some point, we just must try to have patience...

E-Man.. :)

[Dahila]

Air breather I do know where it comes from, and I am the same way, I offer and give away a lot of things, even I do not have a lot of money. I do not want anything from anyone, no gifts nothing. I never ask for help or open up. People have terrible problems and mine are small in comparison. I know it is this way for me because of trauma when I was a child. It stays with one whole life. No good. BTW you and your friend are awesome people to save a dog:)) It makes me happy. Thank you for sharing it.

[Air Breather]

Im-Suffering, Thank You for taking the time to channel my friend for me, am going to try what she has suggested over the next week. It took me time to respond as I couldn't see how to do what you have suggested without opening old wounds again that I had already dealt with, now I have had it explained it is a lot clearer.

Thank You E-Man, when I read that earlier I was having a weird day and while it went downhill, it actually stuck in my mind and was one of the things that helped toward levelling me off.

Dahila, Thank You, Karma (the dog) is doing well and we have bonded very quickly, she even came over to me and licked my face as I lay crying at home after visiting a friend to introduce her, and nearly ripped that friends gate off when I nipped to the car outside. She is only 9 months old and the original owners were going to put her down as they couldn't handle her, I haven't had any issues, apart from pulling a bit on the lead when taking her for short walks and am glad I don't know them as I (even though I am a peaceful hippy) would have belted ten bells of xxxx out of them for being so cruel. I hate cruelty to anyone or any animal and can see that may stem from the same place as my kindness and inability to want something from people as steven has pointed out, not that I would want anything from people anyway.

[Steven Miller]

So you value what someone gives you but you don't want it? For example, you didn't want your friend to help you get the dog, but you valued her help anyway? Just because you were not aware of your desire prior to the act, doesn't mean you didn't want it beforehand.

I spent 10 years believing that I did not want anything from anyone, and feeling terribly anxious. In the last year I've accepted that as a biological organism with a complex human brain I do have wants from other people, and no amount of social programming is ever going to change that. We are all wired that way, trauma or no trauma.

You see, anxiety comes from not feeling in control. Wanting things from other people puts you in a place of no control, because you cannot force people to give you things. We anxiety sufferers hate this feeling of uncertainty so we repress our desires from others, desires for companionship, for protection, for sex, for love, for all of it. We would rather feel in control and alone, unprotected, not loved then to admit that we want these things from people that we cannot control.

What we need to understand is that while we cannot force others to be with us, to share experiences and be our friend or lover, if we have the courage to ask, and to keep asking even when we fail, then we will inevitably find someone who wants to give us what we want. The problem is you spend all of your time alone in your house and you don't take risks. Here is a beautiful quote from a poem:


It doesn't interest me
what you do for a living.
I want to know
what you ache for
and if you dare to dream
of meeting your heart’s longing.

It doesn't interest me
how old you are.
I want to know
if you will risk
looking like a fool
for love
for your dream
for the adventure of being alive.


So, what is your heart's longing? What do you dream? ("Not to feel anxious" isn't an acceptable answer, emotions aren't what is meant here).

[Dahila]

Steven you post is very nice , but what about some kindness? Everyone of us is different, we respond differently to life to people. We are very similar at the same time. I see in airbreather very similar soul to mine and very kind, He does not want anything but he is giving a lot to others. Why no one see it?

People who love animals are the most sensitive people, and the best. I do not want to offense anyone but this is the way I am:)

[Steven Miller]

I remember one time when my friends told me it annoyed them that whenever they asked me where I wanted to go to eat, I always told them "I don't know, wherever you guys want to eat."

I thought I was being unselfish and kind. But I realized the truth. I wasn't. I realized I didn't say anything because I didn't want to be told that we couldn't go there.

So Dahila, to answer your question: "Kindness" can be a mask for your fear and intolerance of not getting what you want. Being kind prevents you from going after it, and hence prevents you from having to deal with life when you don't get what you want. But not going after what you want makes you feel anxious because you are behaving one way, but wanting something else. And that causes anxiety. In-authenticity.

And nobody wants to be around someone who can't handle not getting what they want.

P.S. I'm not saying authentic kindness isn't a wonderful thing. But never asking anyone for anything, and calling that kindness? .. it isn't.

[Dahila]

Steven I actually have my life behind me already, It is not much left;)) I am not going anywhere right now. I really know how to get what I want, I am gentle with getting it. I said I have problem with asking for help, but i help others, without them asking me, so I would like to expect to get the same in return. You are right about kindness being the mask. My anxiety was caused by traumatic expierences in my childhood and 42 times being hospitalized (not for anxiety of course) before I was 25. I expect a lot from me, and other people, but at the same time. Steven even if you are right you need to accept people for what they are, Not everything is anxiety. Not everything can be blamed on it. Everyone of us has their own way of dealing with life, better or worse. Let people do their way and offer the help if you want to. The choice is theirs, they reach for the hand or not.
I am reading this thread because it is interesting. You made a lot of valid points. I hope you will continue posting. I still believe in kindness without being something else :)) Have great evening, day:))

[Steven Miller]

i help others, without them asking me, so I would like to expect to get the same in return.

Expecting people to help without asking them is really something else. I would suggest asking people to help without expecting them to.

[Air Breather]

You make a good point but I didn't desire anyone's help in getting the dog, I was actually thinking of selling some things, importantly I hadn't mentioned that to anyone, when my friend asked if it was money holding me back from getting her, when I said yes is when she then offered, I had no desire in getting her to give me the money as I am unaware of her financial status, I know what she and her partner do for a living but that doesn't mean they would have been able to afford it. As for sex, companionship and the like then yes I can see that as an organism we have wants and desires of our own hidden away and the distinction between someone for help, someone as a friend, someone as a lover would all stem from that, but that is different from having a need to want 'things' from people, sure some people still live with that mindset and at its lowest form is harmless to have, at its worst it is extremely destructive to both people.

Say you go in a shop to buy some food, then yes you go in the shop wanting the food, you go to the counter, ask for what you want, then pay for it and leave content with your purchase; in the meantime you may have certain standards that you expect from the employee, a smile, a hello and politeness, this is clearly not destructive unless you get upset as they have not met your 'standards' and then it becomes destructive. So after thinking about it a bit, I agree that we have a certain level of want's from people, and the dog was probably a bad example as it was slightly different, in the sense I didn't want the dog, I wanted to save a 9 month old dog from being put down and knew I would gain companionship and a great new friend in the mix.

When I say I never want anything from people, I am talking about the physical stuff, not the emotional but I don't go out craving it from people all the time, I am very careful who I give my emotional, physical and mental 'things' to but do give them freely and without hesitation when I feel certain things about them.

My heart's longing is to have children, my dream is that it would be in a relationship that is solid and would give them a way to look at the world that isn't skewed by the likes of Freud and Bernaise.

[Im-Suffering]

You make a good point but I didn't desire anyone's help in getting the dog, I was actually thinking of selling some things, importantly I hadn't mentioned that to anyone, when my friend asked if it was money holding me back from getting her, when I said yes is when she then offered, I had no desire in getting her to give me the money as I am unaware of her financial status, I know what she and her partner do for a living but that doesn't mean they would have been able to afford it. As for sex, companionship and the like then yes I can see that as an organism we have wants and desires of our own hidden away and the distinction between someone for help, someone as a friend, someone as a lover would all stem from that, but that is different from having a need to want 'things' from people, sure some people still live with that mindset and at its lowest form is harmless to have, at its worst it is extremely destructive to both people.

Say you go in a shop to buy some food, then yes you go in the shop wanting the food, you go to the counter, ask for what you want, then pay for it and leave content with your purchase; in the meantime you may have certain standards that you expect from the employee, a smile, a hello and politeness, this is clearly not destructive unless you get upset as they have not met your 'standards' and then it becomes destructive. So after thinking about it a bit, I agree that we have a certain level of want's from people, and the dog was probably a bad example as it was slightly different, in the sense I didn't want the dog, I wanted to save a 9 month old dog from being put down and knew I would gain companionship and a great new friend in the mix.

When I say I never want anything from people, I am talking about the physical stuff, not the emotional but I don't go out craving it from people all the time, I am very careful who I give my emotional, physical and mental 'things' to but do give them freely and without hesitation when I feel certain things about them.

My heart's longing is to have children, my dream is that it would be in a relationship that is solid and would give them a way to look at the world that isn't skewed by the likes of Freud and Bernaise.

It is the longing of your heart that drew me to you, so we shall expand further on our comments the other day.

Now, allow me in. You must first look at your world, and how it's 'skewed'. Because that is the world your potential children face. Let's get right to it.

I have told you that your future mate is probable, and is waiting in the "wings", I will also tell you your children are probable, they are keeping a tight eye toward this reality, watching your progress. The conditions are conducive for attainment because your desire is strong. On the one hand you are attracting them, and on the other, pushing away. There are conflicts here which we will touch on.

As a child, you gave yourself suggestions, your self talk about reality in relation to the events happening to you, and who you are becoming. Your thoughts during that time defined your sense of self. You simply weren't good enough, lovable enough, wanted enough, respected enough. You taught yourself guilt, shame, hatred, and thus the thoughts of suicide. The personality then at that time split. You have the protector who oversees the safety and preservation of the self, and the passive. Both extremes, the ego at that point should have merged, you see, and we would have had balance. Letting the aggressive self dominate did not work as life itself was threatened. You were going to snuff yourself out, and rightly so, you were simply no good, to anyone.

Now, the psyche cannot handle 2 personalities at once, so after the traumatic events years ago, the overdose, the loss of love, the decision was made to suppress one in lieu of the other. You simply rationalized that the passive side could better serve you.

Very strong beliefs were born in the face of, in your words now, "I always had problems, from bullying, frustrated and abusive mother, brother that raped me, non-existent dad who is an asshole"

Blaming yourself, went hand in hand with low self worth, low esteem, and I tell you these unresolved issues were felt intuitively in both relationships you described with women who ultimately left. Thus you have a self fulfilling prophecy as you flesh out your beliefs.

The women cannot save you, they cannot cleanse you, they cannot heal you.

If you want children, a loving spouse, then these remnant emotions attached to devastating events need to be released, and the child inside comforted and supported by you. When he was going through the abuse, he was all alone, you see, abandoned and unloved, and you are still acting as if, because you have hidden from yourself the correlation between the self then, and now.

With these same beliefs, your current relationships will also leave you abandoned and unloved, period.

Aggression is not violence. Violence is powerlessness, a surrender, with intent to destroy, violence at its core is suicidal. Aggression on the other hand, is natural as it serves as the impetus for action. Yet during the abuse you felt helpless, and that you still maintain today. Blocking the creative aggressiveness necessary to form your life. During the episodes of abuse, aggression was surpressed, thus the violent suicidal thoughts which eventually led to a passive, lethargic , fearful approach. There was no balance, or clarity, the world view was so distorted.

Many beliefs have been mentioned here, that is where the work needs to be done.

That is all for now, maybe more later I'm losing focus. I hope to have succeeded in giving you a basic understanding of yourself,

[Steven Miller]

that is different from having a need to want 'things' from people


I try very hard to not use the word "need". If I have used it, it was a mistake.

As long as you "need" what you "want", then it is a serious problem. Needing implies you have no other options, no choice.

Now, that said we do need love and sex and comfort and someone to empathize and share experiences with. But we don't need any one, single particular person to give us that. The more that others see we don't "need" what we want from them, the more they will happily and enthusiastically be with us.


My heart's longing is to have children, my dream is that it would be in a relationship that is solid and would give them a way to look at the world that isn't skewed by the likes of Freud and Bernaise.

That's good. I get it. You don't approve of the belief that we are all a bunch of animals running around trying to have sex with each other. Maybe you're right.

[briggs05]

You said you have been living in a cave. You're first order of business would be to try and get out and socialize more. At least think about it as this will put you in a positive frame of mind. When anxious thoughts don't seem to be going away it is because you are giving them a place and time to dwell. The best way, I believe, to stop this is to not give them a place to grow by filling your day with activity, physically, mentally and spiriritually. When you stay active, your anxiety cannot develop and if it does it means you have let down your guard in a certain aspect of your life. One way to address the issue is to look at yourself from a physical, mental spiritual, social and psychological standpoint. Make sure that everyday you are exercising each of these parts of you. This will limit the ability for the anxiety to develop. I wish you the best.

[Air Breather]

Briggs05, I can only spend a short time when out in places with more than 5 or 6 people before I have to leave as the anxiety is too much, and the tricks I have for keeping it at bay only last a short time, shorter with more people and harder to hide my discomfort. When it is small groups on the other hand, I am OK while I am there, don't get me wrong though as it has taken years to get to that point and I find it a huge victory over the mess I was years ago when I sat on the stairs for hours looking at the inside of the front door just because I needed to get milk form the shop. Now I have Karma I am going out 3 or 4 times a day at the moment, just short walks for 10 or 15 minutes, when I have bonded with her and helped with training her am looking at going out longer, and when she is a little older for much longer walks.

Steven, I can't remember if you used it, but if it is a built in mechanism as Freud implies but doesn't recognise then it becomes a need and something Freud was wrong about, like he was with many other things but there will always be people who defend his opinion.

Thank You Im-Suffering, I am still working on the first part, I'm not going to rush ahead and ruin what I have been open to looking at, I will re-read your last message in a few days when I have finished.