Therapy - has it helped you or ANYONE you know?

[Robbed]

The other day, I was actually talking with someone about therapy. And they brought up a rather interesting question: When was the last time you heard of someone who was actually helped by therapy? I honestly could not think of ANYONE. And, of course, this made me think of my generally negative experiences I have had with therapy in the past. So I thought I might make this poll to see if there is ANYONE out there who therapy may have helped.

[abcdefghix]

Traditional psychotherapy (cognitive behavioral therapy) tends to make anxiety worse, not better. So there aren't many success stories.

However, there is a more modern therapy called Acceptance and Commitment therapy (ACT) that is quickly becoming the more popular approach. It emphasizes mindfulness and acceptance instead of emotional self-regulation.

I did this therapy by book and it was a miracle for me.

The cool t hing is that, unlike traditional CBT, it is a science-based approach and so there are actual studies in medical journals that confirm its effectiveness.

Some examples of the current published medical evidence:

ACT for SAD.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1769 ... d_RVDocSum (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17699117?ordinalpos=4&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)

ACT for OCD:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1694 ... d_RVDocSum (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16942956?ordinalpos=6&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum)

There are many more. I recommend that those here who are struggling give it a try.

[Robbed]

I know all about the ineffectiveness of traditional CBT for anxiety. But is ACT really significantly different from the treatment methods of, say, Claire Weekes?

[ptncud]

Hey Robbed, I have definetly been helped by cbt therapy. I feel that it really depends on what resource or who is administering the therapy. I read a multitude of internet resources on cbt, listened to some recordings from dr. weekes, and used a free online cbt course. From all that i read cbt sounds like the most effective way of getting over anxiety although i didn't look for sites that argued the contrary. Basically what cbt does is reprogram's your mind... replacing those negative thought lies with rational positive ones. This is not a quick process your negative thought pathways slowly die off as you replace them with new positive ones. I think thats the hardest part for people to understand as it was for me... I looked for 3 years for the magic pill that would just take it away.
In conjuction with cbt I used exercise, meditation, good dieting, and vitamins.

abcdefghix I'd be interested in knowing the title of the book you used as i haven't heard anything about ACT yet.
Take care, John

[Robbed]

Hey Robbed, I have definetly been helped by cbt therapy. I feel that it really depends on what resource or who is administering the therapy. I read a multitude of internet resources on cbt, listened to some recordings from dr. weekes, and used a free online cbt course. From all that i read cbt sounds like the most effective way of getting over anxiety although i didn't look for sites that argued the contrary. Basically what cbt does is reprogram's your mind... replacing those negative thought lies with rational positive ones. This is not a quick process your negative thought pathways slowly die off as you replace them with new positive ones. I think thats the hardest part for people to understand as it was for me... I looked for 3 years for the magic pill that would just take it away.
In conjuction with cbt I used exercise, meditation, good dieting, and vitamins.

abcdefghix I'd be interested in knowing the title of the book you used as i haven't heard anything about ACT yet.
Take care, John

From the sound of things, ACT sounds ALOT like Claire Weekes style CBT. For instance, the whole notion that obsessive thoughts are just thoughts which should not be engaged can be found in books written by Claire Weekes over 40 years ago. Indeed, acceptance is the hallmark of her style of CBT. In other words, ACT doesn't REALLY sound like anything fundamentally new.

On the other hand, the term 'CBT' is often used to refer to what I call 'traditional CBT' - replacement of negative thoughts with positive ones. Although this can certainly have some value in the treatment of anxiety, it CAN do more harm than good. For instance, traditional CBT teaches that ALL negative feelings and symptoms of anxiety are the direct result of negative thoughts. If panic/anxiety seems to be 'free floating' (spontaneous and not provoked by thoughts), then you just didn't 'recognize' the thoughts. This has the VERY negative effect of sending the sufferer on a 'wild goose chase' to try to figure out the negative thoughts (which probably aren't there). This causes additional stress, worry, and anxiety, which is counterproductive. For this reason, I don't look at traditional CBT as the best way to deal with ALL anxiety. It's use should be restricted only to those times it is appropriate.

As for therapy, I DO believe that the BIG problem is the general incompetence of therapists. It would seem like VERY few are any good. Another problem I have found with therapists is that SO many adhere to the 'organic brain disease' and 'chemical imbalance' schools of thought when it comes to anxiety. Specifically, that anxiety is permanent and inescapable. And that it can onl be 'managed' throught lifelong medication and therapy. This notion only serves to frighten the already frightened anxiety sufferer further. And when you realize that losing one's fear of anxiety disorder is paramount to recovery, you can see how this school of thought about anxiety can keep you forever trapped in it.

[Robbed]

Hey Robbed, I have definetly been helped by cbt therapy. I feel that it really depends on what resource or who is administering the therapy. I read a multitude of internet resources on cbt, listened to some recordings from dr. weekes, and used a free online cbt course. From all that i read cbt sounds like the most effective way of getting over anxiety although i didn't look for sites that argued the contrary. Basically what cbt does is reprogram's your mind... replacing those negative thought lies with rational positive ones. This is not a quick process your negative thought pathways slowly die off as you replace them with new positive ones. I think thats the hardest part for people to understand as it was for me... I looked for 3 years for the magic pill that would just take it away.
In conjuction with cbt I used exercise, meditation, good dieting, and vitamins.

abcdefghix I'd be interested in knowing the title of the book you used as i haven't heard anything about ACT yet.
Take care, John

From the sound of things, ACT sounds ALOT like Claire Weekes style CBT. For instance, the whole notion that obsessive thoughts are just thoughts which should not be engaged can be found in books written by Claire Weekes over 40 years ago. Indeed, acceptance (but NOT thought replacement) is the hallmark of her style of CBT. In other words, ACT doesn't REALLY sound like anything fundamentally new.

On the other hand, the term 'CBT' is often used to refer to what I call 'traditional CBT' - replacement of negative thoughts with positive ones. Although this can certainly have some value in the treatment of anxiety, it CAN do more harm than good. For instance, traditional CBT teaches that ALL negative feelings and symptoms of anxiety are the direct result of negative thoughts. If panic/anxiety seems to be 'free floating' (spontaneous and not provoked by thoughts), then you just didn't 'recognize' the thoughts. This has the VERY negative effect of sending the sufferer on a 'wild goose chase' to try to figure out the negative thoughts (which probably aren't there). This causes additional stress, worry, and anxiety, which is counterproductive. For this reason, I don't look at traditional CBT as the best way to deal with ALL anxiety. It's use should be restricted only to those times it is appropriate.

As for therapy, I DO believe that the BIG problem is the general incompetence of therapists. It would seem like VERY few are any good. Another problem I have found with therapists is that SO many adhere to the 'organic brain disease' and 'chemical imbalance' schools of thought when it comes to anxiety. Specifically, that anxiety is permanent and inescapable. And that it can only be 'managed' through lifelong medication and therapy. This notion only serves to frighten the already frightened anxiety sufferer further. And when you realize that losing one's fear of anxiety disorder is paramount to recovery, you can see how this school of thought about anxiety can keep you forever trapped in it.

One more thing. When I asked whether therapy is helpful, what I REALLY meant was seeing a therapist. I consider self-administered CBT to be self-help (which, by the way, is THE best help available). So it doesn't count.

[joey9]

Although I would agree that relying on drugs to control your mood as a life strategy is not a good idea, I do think that brain chemistry is hugely influential in causing anxiety. You can induce anxiety states very easily in people who aren't usually prone to anxiety by giving them a hangover or getting them to smoke dope. I personally have had issues with excessive worry ever since I can remember. Its only in the past few years that its really flared up but I think that comes from having more responsiblility with age and hence a more stressful life. I think I am programmed at the extreme end of the 'sensitive to fear' spectrum and that as much as I hate it i need to accept this as much as I accept that many of my other attributes are at various ends of different spectrums - I am crap at running fast but I am fairly tall. What is important is that I recognise when I may be prone to anxiety and work on my defense strategies at these times i.e. exercise, thought modification etc. People with anxiety tend to have personality traits in common - sensitivity, conscientiousness i.e. all things associated with high neuroticism which is widely accepted as having a strong biological base. We have high levels of cortical arousal at the best of times - put us under stress and it's a dose of noradrenaline too far. Therapy or self-help is probably a good way to get back on track when things go too far but I'm not sure i will ever be 'cured' as I would like to be cured, i.e. totally self-confident, worry free, brave, emotionally resilient. But that's because you can't 'cure' your basic personality type. You might modify it slightly but then again my personality is who I am just as my eye colour and facial features make me who I am. I'm sure I would be a worse friend and mother if I were less sensitive. Being neurotic has its advantages anyway. I am far less likely to ever be killed in an accident, although more likely to end up with stomach ulcers.

[Robbed]

Although I would agree that relying on drugs to control your mood as a life strategy is not a good idea, I do think that brain chemistry is hugely influential in causing anxiety. You can induce anxiety states very easily in people who aren't usually prone to anxiety by giving them a hangover or getting them to smoke dope. I personally have had issues with excessive worry ever since I can remember. Its only in the past few years that its really flared up but I think that comes from having more responsiblility with age and hence a more stressful life. I think I am programmed at the extreme end of the 'sensitive to fear' spectrum and that as much as I hate it i need to accept this as much as I accept that many of my other attributes are at various ends of different spectrums - I am crap at running fast but I am fairly tall. What is important is that I recognise when I may be prone to anxiety and work on my defense strategies at these times i.e. exercise, thought modification etc. People with anxiety tend to have personality traits in common - sensitivity, conscientiousness i.e. all things associated with high neuroticism which is widely accepted as having a strong biological base. We have high levels of cortical arousal at the best of times - put us under stress and it's a dose of noradrenaline too far. Therapy or self-help is probably a good way to get back on track when things go too far but I'm not sure i will ever be 'cured' as I would like to be cured, i.e. totally self-confident, worry free, brave, emotionally resilient. But that's because you can't 'cure' your basic personality type. You might modify it slightly but then again my personality is who I am just as my eye colour and facial features make me who I am. I'm sure I would be a worse friend and mother if I were less sensitive. Being neurotic has its advantages anyway. I am far less likely to ever be killed in an accident, although more likely to end up with stomach ulcers.

Then again, is your personality really completely determined by genes? Of is it perhaps your upbringing? Do you tend to be afraid of things because it is 'who you are'? Or is it because you never learned to cope with things? I tend to believe the latter in both cases. If I was just a worrier by nature, then I should be REALLY afraid of ALOT of things. But I'm actually not. For instance, despite the fact that some might consider me to be 'neurotic', I would probably be MORE likely to be killed in an accident rather than less - I am actually rather fearless about driving. Even at night on lonely roads. And I frequently go hiking in the mountains alone - even at night. Also, I am quite confident in some of my abilities. Why am I not afraid of this stuff? Because I never LEARNED to be. I could also see that most people's fears of such things as hiking alone in the mountains at night are overblown. On the other hand, I am MUCH more fearful of, say, social gatherings and job interviews. Why? Because it's in the genes? I don't think so. Rather, I believe that this is the case because I never learned to cope with this. For instance, my parents were never social butterflies themselves. So they really couldn't teach me how to be successful in this environment (and their parents couldn't teach them).

I also feel VERY confident about, say, working on cars but NOT about getting an engineering job (this is what I have my degree in) Why? Because engineering was something that was put on a pedestal 'out of my reach'. It was always emphasized to me that this is something difficult to do, and that I probably couldn't do it. So I learned to fear it. Luckily, though, I learned to wire up my car to run different engines with different computers (and became confident with doing it) before I was told very much about how difficult this supposedly is!

Now perhaps it is true that some people are bound to worry more than others. Maybe some people really ARE trapped in high anxiety for basically all of their lives. And perhaps some of us really do have to be a little more vigilant. HOWEVER, I FIRMLY believe that the development of a full-blown panic/anxiety disorder at some point in your life does NOT mean that it is your genetic fate to remain trapped in that anxiety disorder for life (as MANY doctors/psychiatrists/psychologsts believe). Chances are you are simply going to eventually return to your normal, baseline levels of anxiety, with or without interventions. However, interventions (like CBT) will likely make the return faster, result in other improvements to your life, and possibly even give you a lower overall baseline level of anxiety (many people who recover from anxiety report being BETTER in every way than they were before anxiety).

I should also say that all of this makes the word 'cure' a rather nebulous concept. I guess that when I say 'cure', what I REALLY mean is recovering from your actual anxiety disorder to become 'yourself' again. In other words, to attain baseline levels of anxiety. But, if by 'cure' you mean ZERO anxiety, this is not going to happen for ANYONE on the planet.

[joey9]

Yes, we do learn to fear specific things, but our ability to learn and experience fear our hard wired. At a very basic level, fear is about sensitivity to novel stimuli. if you look at animal models of anxiety, they are based around studying exploratory behaviour and vigilance - how readily will an animal approach novel surroundings etc., or look out for predators. So over a lifetime an animal, including a human, will learn to fear some things, and learn that some things aren't to be feared. Basic Pavlovian conditioning shows how you can make, for example, a dog be afraid of the sound of a bell ringing. There is nothing inherently scarey about the sound of a bell ringing, but if you give the dog an electric shock after he hears the bell he will soon learn to be afraid of the sound of the bell. Deconditioning the dog to not be afraid of the bell any more depends on many factors - fear responses that are based on unpredictable conditioning - i.e. not giving a shock every time you hear a bell, but giving one every few, or worse, random times, makes the fear responses really hard to extinguish. The basic underlying sensitivity that an individual has to novel stimuli is hard wired. You can see varying levels of this sensitivity in animals and in humans and you can manipulate it artificially. It will therefore be easier to condition a more sensitive individual to be afraid of things. Now, humans have very advanced cognitive capabilities and our lives are very complex. It is not surprising that given the unpredictable nature of our lives we will learn fear responses to some things that become very hard to extinguish, and yet for other things even a sensitive individual will learn not to be fearful - put a dog in front of a bear and he will doubtless be terrified, but if the bear is tame and each time the dog sees him he is not threatened or attacked then he will soon enough learn that the bear is not a threat. Hence even sensitive people are not afraid of everything. Anxiety is a result of a sustained overdose of fear, and is often a result of feeling helpless/hopeless. We are fighting a constant battle with our very basic, primeaval fear receptors and our increasingly complex lives. We have evolved to live in small kinship groups with a few, relatively predictable threats, not to live in huge cities and have stressful office jobs. I suggest it is much harder for a sensitive individual to adjust and cope with this than for an individual who is very insensitive to the barrage of novel and unpredictable stimuli that we are nowadays subjected to.

[Robbed]

I suggest it is much harder for a sensitive individual to adjust and cope with this than for an individual who is very insensitive to the barrage of novel and unpredictable stimuli that we are nowadays subjected to.

Even if this is so, then coping skills still play a HUGE part in all of this. It is entirely possible that ALOT of us here are perhaps not extremely 'sensitive' by nature, but have learned to become so. If, for instance, someone grew up as a child in a household where failure was looked at as the 'end of the world' rather than something to be worked on OR an opportunity for self-improvement, we would not expect that person to be the most balanced person in the world.

When I look at myself, there is alot I never learned as far as coping with fear. Most basically, I never learned about the harm fear (or, especially, an 'overdose' of it) could do. When I became fearful, I just went along with it. I was never told to do anything else. It is no wonder that a person such as myself could 'overdose' on fear. The funny thing is that it is actually MUCH easier to just let the fearful thought pass than I ever thought it would have been before my anxiety problems actually started. But, as I said, I would not even have tried. This brings up something else I NEVER learned growing up - that 99.9999999% of things are not NEARLY as scary or difficult as you might think (or as some other people would LIKE you to think). I can't count the number of times that I found something that I REALLY worried about to not be nearly the big deal that I thought it was.

See what I am saying here? As I said, I don't know where I rank on the 'sensitivity scale'. But I feel that life has definitely TAUGHT me to be afraid when I shouldn't be. And because it has, it has become habit.

[joey9]

My problem is that on very rare occasions in my life, things of the type that i fear have actually happened and I have felt TERRIBLE out of all proportion - because the types of things that i fear are things that other people just take on the chin and get over. This just serves to reinforce to me why I am fearful of them - because I feel so bad when they happen. So I worry increasingly about them happening again and work hard to cover as many potential 'disasters' as I can. I don't know how to break this cycle. I guess this is about learning coping skills but I don't know how to do this - its not that i can't practically deal with a problem when it happens, its that i can't stand FEELING so bad. The hypothetical ending to a lot of my worries is that 'i would feel bad', which sounds a bit lame as the apocolyptical climax of weeks of worrying but its the thing that i fear most.

[santaboi]

i went for a hypnosis therapy once and i personally think that it was a load of horseshit. I dont know about you guys but i doubt the efficiency and effectiveness of hypnosis..

[Robbed]

i went for a hypnosis therapy once and i personally think that it was a load of horseshit. I dont know about you guys but i doubt the efficiency and effectiveness of hypnosis..

There is one BIG difference between most therapy and manure: manure can be useful.

As for therapists, there are a couple of questions that should ALWAYS be asked before considering a therapist:

1. Have you personally experienced an anxiety condition?

2. Have you recovered from it, and remained medication-free AND anxiety condition-free for at LEAST a couple of years?

A therapist who can answer YES to all parts of both conditions has a MUCH, MUCH, MUCH better chance of actually being able to help you.

[louisrapisarda]

no my mum spend over 1000$ on it never worked my pearnts think i dont suffer from it but i do heaps.