SAD and the fear of women

[ecotech2003]

**** Please do not be offended. I mean no disrespect to women at all. This is what I deal with and I am trying to change. ****




My biggest problem with SAD is I am afraid of women and do not trust them. I think that they have some hidden agenda to screw me over in some way. This kills any opportunity for a relationship. How do overcome this?

[Ponder]

Identify the source of the problem in yourself and don't see women as all the same. They are not. They are all individuals and it might pay to consider that some of them also feel the same way about men. They too need to identify the source of their distrust as well. I have met various friends that have miss out completely because of such views. Distrust is not gender specific, although if you were abused by a women that may lead you to thinking of them all the same. Try to let go of gender specific stigmas - I struggle with other men myself - an Authority complex of mine - I have to accept that not all men are out to dominate each other and accept people not by gender but by who they on a deeper level ...

What do you think of that?

[kateb]

I don't know if it will help if I just say, I'm sorry that you have been hurt by women, and I totally get it - I feel really comfortable with other women, but I feel a lot less certain of guys, because of my past! So it is totally normal to have some hangups. Yours is a very specific concern and is not necessarily logical, but since when has anxiety ever paid attention to logic? :) Since I don't know you, I don't have any agenda at all, except seeing someone who is hurting and thinking "I wonder if I can help a bit". My only advice would be, get some counselling to figure out where this has come from. At some point, you will need to be able to judge women on their actions and words, not on what you believe they will do, but it is not just as simple as saying "trust women" because you can't right now. So you probably need to address why that is, before you can realise that there are good, honest women out there who aren't out to trick you, just like there are lots of good, honest men out there too. Men and women are just people, good or bad - like Ponder said, it is about accepting people for who they are, not their gender.

I hope that helps.

[ecotech2003]

Identify the source of the problem in yourself and don't see women as all the same. They are not. They are all individuals and it might pay to consider that some of them also feel the same way about men. They too need to identify the source of their distrust as well. I have met various friends that have miss out completely because of such views. Distrust is not gender specific, although if you were abused by a women that may lead you to thinking of them all the same. Try to let go of gender specific stigmas - I struggle with other men myself - an Authority complex of mine - I have to accept that not all men are out to dominate each other and accept people not by gender but by who they on a deeper level ...

What do you think of that?

the source is my mom and two ex's. never thought that women may have the same problem. "accept people not by gender but by who they on a deeper level" hmm....I will try to do that. thanks


I don't know if it will help if I just say, I'm sorry that you have been hurt by women, and I totally get it - I feel really comfortable with other women, but I feel a lot less certain of guys, because of my past! So it is totally normal to have some hangups. Yours is a very specific concern and is not necessarily logical, but since when has anxiety ever paid attention to logic? :) Since I don't know you, I don't have any agenda at all, except seeing someone who is hurting and thinking "I wonder if I can help a bit". My only advice would be, get some counselling to figure out where this has come from. At some point, you will need to be able to judge women on their actions and words, not on what you believe they will do, but it is not just as simple as saying "trust women" because you can't right now. So you probably need to address why that is, before you can realise that there are good, honest women out there who aren't out to trick you, just like there are lots of good, honest men out there too. Men and women are just people, good or bad - like Ponder said, it is about accepting people for who they are, not their gender.

I hope that helps.

If my fear and mistrust is not logical, then why do I get the flight response when I have to interact with them? I also don't understand why would you want to help? tanks for it though

[Ponder]

Hi ecotech ... Yea - We all have issues to some degree. The response you feel is from constantly thinking about it - or it is at least that way for me. I seem to exacerbate it the more I think about it. I hate PEOPLE regardless of gender. I need to work on that. The more I think about just how much I hate going to town and being surrounded by people, the more flighty I become when I go to town - even when I don't think about it and am happy wandering around the beach free of all the hustle and bustle. Only way I can deal with it, is to slowly expose myself to those situations I can not avoid and hopefully over time, I may come to trust enough people again ... enough to want to make a continued effort in acceptance of myself and my issues.

Forgive me if none of that makes any sense - my clarity is not always the best at the end of the day.

Wish you well - It's good that you can talk about it. So many people with Gender issues, will allow such to limit them for most of their lives. It can become quite bitter and is readily seen everyday on face book. Men always going on about gender roles and women crying about equal rights - it's been going on for quite some time, and will continue to do so - no doubt. Seeing as everyone wants to be top dog these days, both groups are all wanting to be Alpha - is quite a mess.

You'll get there ... if it helps, see them all the same as I do ... LOL - nar man, ya don't want to do that - but do keep talking.

[Pierogies99]

I feel that everyone has a hidden agenda, and that a lot of the time it's to fuck me over; that they are constantly judging me. I analyze the majority of my interactions with people this way, regardless of gender. I figured that's me just being cynical, but maybe not. To be fair, lots of people do suck and are assholes.

In regards to women, I feel they are extremely manipulative and will do anything to get their way. This is more of a recent realization of mine, but I think most guys can understand this at least a little bit. So these days I constantly look for it, and I'll usually find it, whether it is there or not. I look at every couple I know and instantly see the signs of the female trying to mentally dominate the male through subtle (or not so subtle) ways. If you would like some more specific examples, the comedian Bill Burr has some great bits about this stuff, and there are entire forums dedicated to discussing this stuff.

I do think there are decent women out there, but they are few and far between, and at the risk of sounding cliche, it's like a needle in a haystack. Most are just varying degrees of terrible. I would like a relationship with a woman like that, but at this point I have built her up in my head so much that anyone I do find will likely fall short, which will make a long term relationship very difficult. I also base a lot of her qualities on what other people would think of her, and think of me for dating her, which is stupid and unfair. This also makes me put very little effort into actually persuing someone, and then I get pissed because "why should I have to put in all the effort?"

Most of this probably stems from my mom, which seems to be the case for most of my social issues. I've also had some bad experiences with relationships, the most recent one (well it's been more than a few years now) being at least a partial catalyst for my downward spiral. I also had a very toxic one for over a year. Lots of missed opportunities as well simply because I was terrible at closing.


Hi ecotech ... Yea - We all have issues to some degree. The response you feel is from constantly thinking about it - or it is at least that way for me. I seem to exacerbate it the more I think about it. I hate PEOPLE regardless of gender. I need to work on that. The more I think about just how much I hate going to town and being surrounded by people, the more flighty I become when I go to town - even when I don't think about it and am happy wandering around the beach free of all the hustle and bustle. Only way I can deal with it, is to slowly expose myself to those situations I can not avoid and hopefully over time, I may come to trust enough people again ... enough to want to make a continued effort in acceptance of myself and my issues.

Pretty much this. I hate being around people, so I avoid leaving the house as much as possible. Yet I get really lonely sometimes because I don't leave the house. Then I get bitter when I think of people having fun, normal lives, so I hate them. Hurray for vicious cycles! I skipped Christmas and stayed home while my entire family went to my aunt's house because I didn't want to deal with the silent judging, and I was just not looking forward to fake having a good time. Yet in the past I've gotten along very well with most of my family, so in reality it would no where near as as bad as it was in my head. I've had some good experiences recently working with my friend though, so hopefully continuing that will help me get past this.


It can become quite bitter and is readily seen everyday on face book. Men always going on about gender roles and women crying about equal rights - it's been going on for quite some time, and will continue to do so - no doubt. Seeing as everyone wants to be top dog these days, both groups are all wanting to be Alpha - is quite a mess.

Haha, don't get me started on Facebook. I constantly see this gender battle, and I actively participate in it with snarky comments and disparaging links to sites or articles. I've gotten into more than one gender role "status war" at this point. In general, people I used to hang out with on a regular basis now sicken me when I see frivolous posts from them, when I used to do the same exact thing, and in reality still do. Being self-aware of this this unfortunately does not mean I'll automatically stop doing it. :p

Not sure if some of what I wrote is on topic, but it all connects in my head!

[ecotech2003]

Hi ecotech ... Yea - We all have issues to some degree. The response you feel is from constantly thinking about it - or it is at least that way for me. I seem to exacerbate it the more I think about it. I hate PEOPLE regardless of gender. I need to work on that. The more I think about just how much I hate going to town and being surrounded by people, the more flighty I become when I go to town - even when I don't think about it and am happy wandering around the beach free of all the hustle and bustle. Only way I can deal with it, is to slowly expose myself to those situations I can not avoid and hopefully over time, I may come to trust enough people again ... enough to want to make a continued effort in acceptance of myself and my issues.

Forgive me if none of that makes any sense - my clarity is not always the best at the end of the day.

Wish you well - It's good that you can talk about it. So many people with Gender issues, will allow such to limit them for most of their lives. It can become quite bitter and is readily seen everyday on face book. Men always going on about gender roles and women crying about equal rights - it's been going on for quite some time, and will continue to do so - no doubt. Seeing as everyone wants to be top dog these days, both groups are all wanting to be Alpha - is quite a mess.

You'll get there ... if it helps, see them all the same as I do ... LOL - nar man, ya don't want to do that - but do keep talking.

You make sense to me. I have been trying to slowly expose myself to women more, however, part of the problem is I analyze everything to WAY to much. I will keep trying. When my sister first got married I was very jealous of her and mad at her husband for taking my sister away...LOL I can't believe I use think that. anyway I want to work this problem out, cause I am lonely, want a companion (when I am ready), and I am tired of being scared and frustrated.

[ecotech2003]

I feel that everyone has a hidden agenda, and that a lot of the time it's to fuck me over; that they are constantly judging me. I analyze the majority of my interactions with people this way, regardless of gender. I figured that's me just being cynical, but maybe not. To be fair, lots of people do suck and are assholes.

I think that is a balance thing. try not to judge the nice and be cautious of the other. idk



In regards to women, I feel they are extremely manipulative and will do anything to get their way. This is more of a recent realization of mine, but I think most guys can understand this at least a little bit. So these days I constantly look for it, and I'll usually find it, whether it is there or not. I look at every couple I know and instantly see the signs of the female trying to mentally dominate the male through subtle (or not so subtle) ways. If you would like some more specific examples, the comedian Bill Burr has some great bits about this stuff, and there are entire forums dedicated to discussing this stuff.

I feel this way too sometimes.


I do think there are decent women out there, but they are few and far between, and at the risk of sounding cliche, it's like a needle in a haystack. Most are just varying degrees of terrible. I would like a relationship with a woman like that, but at this point I have built her up in my head so much that anyone I do find will likely fall short, which will make a long term relationship very difficult. I also base a lot of her qualities on what other people would think of her, and think of me for dating her, which is stupid and unfair. This also makes me put very little effort into actually persuing someone, and then I get pissed because "why should I have to put in all the effort?"

maybe idk but my sense of what is a good woman and not is REALLY messed up.


Most of this probably stems from my mom, which seems to be the case for most of my social issues. I've also had some bad experiences with relationships, the most recent one (well it's been more than a few years now) being at least a partial catalyst for my downward spiral. I also had a very toxic one for over a year. Lots of missed opportunities as well simply because I was terrible at closing.

I am in the same boat man, same boat.


Pretty much this. I hate being around people, so I avoid leaving the house as much as possible. Yet I get really lonely sometimes because I don't leave the house. Then I get bitter when I think of people having fun, normal lives, so I hate them. Hurray for vicious cycles! I skipped Christmas and stayed home while my entire family went to my aunt's house because I didn't want to deal with the silent judging, and I was just not looking forward to fake having a good time. Yet in the past I've gotten along very well with most of my family, so in reality it would no where near as as bad as it was in my head. I've had some good experiences recently working with my friend though, so hopefully continuing that will help me get past this.

It is too much to deal with sometimes. I go out for a little then come and hide, go out then come and hide.


Haha, don't get me started on Facebook. I constantly see this gender battle, and I actively participate in it with snarky comments and disparaging links to sites or articles. I've gotten into more than one gender role "status war" at this point. In general, people I used to hang out with on a regular basis now sicken me when I see frivolous posts from them, when I used to do the same exact thing, and in reality still do. Being self-aware of this this unfortunately does not mean I'll automatically stop doing it. :p

I only have facebook for the games and to keep up with my friends.[/QUOTE]

[ecotech2003]

Oh another thing is around women is I feel vary vulnerable and afraid I am going to get hurt somehow. How do you feel safe without shutting people out?

[Pierogies99]

I think that is a balance thing. try not to judge the nice and be cautious of the other. idk
Yeah, that's part of the problem. :p I'm quite judgmental of everyone around me (inside my head of course), so when I'm told that people aren't constantly judging my every move, it's kind of hard to grasp. Logically, I know this is probably the case, and that I am projecting my own behavior onto others, but after all, everyone must do what I do since I'm completely normal, right?!?! :confused: That realization of people not constantly judging me hasn't really sunk in yet (I still don't really believe it), but I guess it's not that easy to change a lifetimes worth of behavior.

Fun fact: I edited this to run spell check because I didn't want anyone here to judge me for my spelling errors.


maybe idk but my sense of what is a good woman and not is REALLY messed up.
I feel ya, buddy.


It is too much to deal with sometimes. I go out for a little then come and hide, go out then come and hide.
Social fatigue is a term I think fits perfectly for this. Happens to me all the time.


Oh another thing is around women is I feel vary vulnerable and afraid I am going to get hurt somehow. How do you feel safe without shutting people out?
Let me know if you figure it out. :D

[Ponder]

Pierogies99 "Being self-aware of this this unfortunately does not mean I'll automatically stop doing it.."

I know this too well. It's just the first step. I've heard it said that it's our level of understanding that determines largely how we choose to continue. There are many levels of awareness that require more effort than others. The more effort something takes, the more aware we need to become. Facebook has become less traumatic since I only use it to talk to my long distance family members who are themselves addicted to it in their own right. I have let go of the gender fights all together.

ecotech ... we have to accept that we are all unreliable and pretty much everything we do involves risk to some degree. Lowering expectation works very well for me. Unfortunately people rely heavily on "standards" theretofore are unable to comprehend the wisdom in that. Don't get me wrong - I still suffer with people in general, but more so due to my depressive state and inability to accept what a fucked up world in which we live. I need to accept that and work within my own bubble as best I can make that.

You can practice to exude confidence and smile with all kinds of dress, things and promises - however if you want to find someone and offer them yourself - then just be yourself and the more practiced you get at doing that, you will be sure to find another just like you - and you can bet that relationship will be a keeper. Just keep practicing being yourself and being there for others as they cross your path. If that other can not see who you are, then just step aside and keep moving until until someone does. In the mean time, do your best to make the most of whatever comes your way.

[ecotech2003]

Yeah, that's part of the problem. :p I'm quite judgmental of everyone around me (inside my head of course), so when I'm told that people aren't constantly judging my every move, it's kind of hard to grasp. Logically, I know this is probably the case, and that I am projecting my own behavior onto others, but after all, everyone must do what I do since I'm completely normal, right?!?! :confused: That realization of people not constantly judging me hasn't really sunk in yet (I still don't really believe it), but I guess it's not that easy to change a lifetimes worth of behavior.

Fun fact: I edited this to run spell check because I didn't want anyone here to judge me for my spelling errors.


I feel ya, buddy.


Social fatigue is a term I think fits perfectly for this. Happens to me all the time.


Let me know if you figure it out. :D

It makes it hard to talk to people I know. I'm the other way. I'm afraid that I will make people mad at me and get punished for it. I do the same the with spell check. lol On the topic of women if I figure it out I will let you know. It might be a while thought :D

[Damavandi]

Hi Ecotech:

As far as I know, SAD stands for Seasonal Affective Disorder.
Please elaborate how change of seasons effects your relationship
with women. I very well know that vitamin D deficiency may cause SAD.
How women are drawn into this SAD situation is a very interesting subject ?!

Best wishes,
Ali

[casstar01]

Well first of all I am a woman. And I'm really sorry you struggle so much with distrust- it's a really unpleasant way to go through life. I have zero agenda here, I just happen to be a person who has a great deal of empathy for people and those suffering. I don't know you and therefor don't want or need anything from you. I just care which
can be a burden in itself. Anyway that being said I understand your distrust, as a woman I have this issue with not trusting men ( I feel like they will always cheat if they think they can get away with it, that they will only hurt you, that they lie, that they will leave the second they don't want to deal with something minor, that they are selfish and manipulative etc..) I do think there are good guys out there I am blessed to be with one now but it seems they are so few and far between that to try to find another good guy would be next to impossible. But here's the thing I also understand 100% your distrust if women!! I have been hurt and destroyed by other girls my whole life! They are not usually a true friend. I am an extream ky loyal honest and loving friend I will do anything for my friends but I always end up getting screwed over by them! They are lying backstabbing and manipulative. This is really a painful thing for me to admit because as a woman I hate these types of girls because they make us all look like bitches ;). But like men we are all not like that! And I know it's one thing to hear but another thing entirely to know. I agree with the others that we must look at all people for who they are not there gender and what we have suffered with by there gender. It's tough though because we can't always see who people really are until we get to know them. So we must take it slow and not get too involved too quick. But the thing about always mistrusting others is it's a terrible and lonely way to go through life and there are some really amazing people out there who have so much to offer and who are also looking for someone they can trust. Not all people have an agenda. But it's hard to disifer those who do!!! I think the key to learning how to overcome this issue lies with working through what those women did to hurt you so badly. It's key and if one of them was your mother than that is perfectly understandable. We are given our viewpoint by our parents. They show us how to treat others, how others should treat us, how to view the world and the safety or lack of in it etc.. They hold so much of our outlooks and well being in their hand as we grow so this issue must be pretty deep within you if the one person your supposed to trust with everything was the one that failed you. If your not getting Counsiling I strongly suggest it- it's so helpful and I can tell you from experience that issues with our parents go deeper than we know. I'm working a great deal with my therapist on my issues suffered and given to me by my mother who really never should have been a mother. The insight my therapist has given me into all this is priceless and she has helped me see the connection to things I never would have imagined had to do with my mother. Anyway, I hope this made sence and that it helped you at all. Always here, cedar

[Ponder]

That was quite some revelation casstar. I must admit that I often wonder at my own strong desire to be loyal and just whilst all that is surrounds me seems, intent on being selfish and unjust. I must thank you for your response as regardless of gender there is much that all of us can get from that. That was awesome and I really appreciate you saying what you said.

TY.

[ecotech2003]

Hi Ecotech:

As far as I know, SAD stands for Seasonal Affective Disorder.
Please elaborate how change of seasons effects your relationship
with women. I very well know that vitamin D deficiency may cause SAD.
How women are drawn into this SAD situation is a very interesting subject ?!

Best wishes,
Ali

Social Anxiety Disorder

Maybe I should go out more. one step at a time though.

[ecotech2003]

That was quite some revelation casstar. I must admit that I often wonder at my own strong desire to be loyal and just whilst all that is surrounds me seems, intent on being selfish and unjust. I must thank you for your response as regardless of gender there is much that all of us can get from that. That was awesome and I really appreciate you saying what you said.

TY.

It was wasn't. Thank you casstar01. I will send you a pm in few days. I need some time to let what you said sink in.

[casstar01]

Glad I could offer some helpful insight. :) always here.

[Pierogies99]

--snip--

Oh, don't get me wrong, guys can do plenty of the same stuff. I just think it's more commonly accepted that women take mind games to the next level. At least that has been my experience.

Regardless, the topic was about women, so that's why I didn't bother talking about bad shit men do. I think people in general are pretty awful, some are just more awful than other on certain things.

[casstar01]

I agree completely. However, I'm unsure on weather women do it more than men. I think both sexes can be equally selfish hurtful and manipulative. They both can just go about it in different ways. Women also have the extra burden of being more emotional (not all of them of coarse)which in some cases I think can be miss taken for other things. But I don't disagree we can be quit confusing! The problem is that human beings are just getting more self involved. The whole world is about them and their needs and what they want. I have such a problem with the lack of empathy and compassion and consideration that goes on in this world. It's sad and frustrating!!!! I try very hard to not do the double standard thing. It's about the action not who's doing it. But like I said I think both sexes are equal in offenses but can just do it on different ways and also on the same ways. If that makes sence.

[ecotech2003]

I want say thank you to casstar, Ponder, and Pierogies99. You have helped me make some progress in dealing with the things I'm working on. I think I'm starting to see things for how they really are. This a great site that really helps. Thanks again.

[casstar01]

I want say thank you to casstar, Ponder, and Pierogies99. You have helped me make some progress in dealing with the things I'm working on. I think I'm starting to see things for how they really are. This a great site that really helps. Thanks again.your so welcome!! I'm so happy to hear we were able to help shed some light on your situation. I hope you continue to make great progress and ultimately end up a happier person. :)

[ecotech2003]

I'm trying to talk to girls I don't know to change my views that I had. Also I going to get a job so I can get on of my parents house which will help too. I will post what happens.

[ecotech2003]

:confused: :mad: I don't get it!! is it me, is it them, is something I'm doing or not doing. The way I look. IDFK. I just want to try to talk with girls for once without being afraid. I want to share myself with someone who likes me back. I guess that is to much to ask for. vent over

[ecotech2003]

It's perfectly understandable for you to feel frustrated if you are struggling to realise your hopes for some intimacy. We all I think hope to have something unconditional and responsive in our relationships. I know I do. I feel very lonely quite often.Are there any social anxiety groups in your area or within the local mental health services. It would be great if we could meet people that understand some of the fears we have wouldn't it?! That way one can ease themselves gently into these interactions. People wouldn't expect things from us beyond our current limitations so much. At the moment you could be feeling so strongly your desire for meeting compatible people that your expectations are exacerbating your difficulties? It's really hard to appear relaxed when we have high expectations of ourselves and in turn the reactions of others. Nothing changes unless we act to do so. You're trying for what you want so I hope you find what you're hoping for soon Ecotech. Best wishes.

I feel lonely too. I'm also jealous of other people who have good relationships. I want what they have, but, I can't seam to get it. I don't know of any health services like that. It would nice to have a dating service for people with anxiety. It would make thing so much easier. (hint hint admin :)) Maybe, your right about me making it harder than it should be. It is hard for me to relax I tend to be very high stung. I don't know what I need to do. It's like playing darts blindfolded and trying to hit the bull's-eye. Good luck lol. Thanks frankiecfc.

[ecotech2003]

lol thanks

[casstar01]

Oh ecotech, I truly feel your pain and frustration about all of this!!! It really is such a hard thing for us as it is but adding the additional fear of being hurt makes it all feel so hopeless at times. I have to say though I'm incredibly impressed that you have tried, and taken all these steps to get over this and work through it. There is so much to be said for your efforts! :) please try to be easier on yourself and don't give up!!! I know that is easier said than done, but it's so important! I think the others are on to something when they say your seeking out something do hard that it is actually working against you in a way. But I get it. We just want the end result NOW. And the fear of never getting that end result makes it worse. I think your on to something with the anxiety dating service ;) lol! I found what really really helped me to "weed" through the men that where good and really wanted to know me for me over the ones that wanted only to use me was by first setting up a sort of list of ground rules for myself. I wanted to find a man different than all the others that had hurt me. So there were certain traits and actions I told myself I wouldn't put up with or rather would just move on if I saw them. I also told myself that focusing on the end result of finding a real and loving partner in my life was making me jump too quickly into things before I really knew them and that I needed to almost out that end result on the back burner so to speak. It really is true that when your not looking for someone you find them! Which sucks! Also, what was most helpful and effective was I opened up about my severe social anxiety very early on and even right away at times and it made me feel more relaxed because I then had an explanation for seeming quiet or awkward at times and if yah person your with is a good person and a caring person they will stick around if not they will just drop out and you will have saved a lot of time, energy, and feelings you otherwise would have invested. And when you find the one that still wants to stick around and get to know the real you than that's the one that's worth your time. And also she will probably want to learn more about your anxiety and how it makes you feel and how she may help when it's bad and etc... This is my advise, I sincerely hope it helps and that it made sence to you? But I know it works from personal experience. And now I am one of those blessed people you find yourself wanting to be. But before I was blessed I was in your same shoes and it was unbearable. But it turned out the one that stuck around was the one I did everything different with. I wish you all the best on your journey. It's a hard road at times but don't give up, it really is worth it. Always here , casstar